This generation will not pass away until ... what happens?

[Mellontes]

Much of evangelical Christianity has missed the second coming on the same, identical basis - looking for physical, material fulfillments. Because they have a false "NATURE" of His "appearing again the second time," they must explain away or ignore EVERY SINGLE TIME STATEMENT that states very clearly the obvious imminence of the second "coming" to that first century generation.

Nobody that I know of denies the second coming theme in the following 2 Thessalonians passage. What I want to know is how that first century Thessalonian church could be released from their suffering and trials (the persecuting Pharisees and unbelieving Jews - 1 Thess 2:14-16) as a promise by the INSPIRED PAUL (cannot lie):

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 - Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ[/color]:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Them = unbelieving Jews
You = 1st century Thessalonian church (believers)
Us = Paul, Timothy, Silvanus and the Thessalonians believers. All believers would experience this event, but Paul is writing specifically to the Thessalonian church.

I'm wondering what conclusion you would come to applying this type of exegesis to 2 Samuel 7?

2 Samuel 7:12 "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.
2Sa 7:15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you.
2Sa 7:16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever."

And of it's fulfillment in 1 Kings 8?

1Ki 8:17 Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel.
1Ki 8:18 But the LORD said to my father David, 'Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well that it was in your heart.
1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will come from your body, he shall build the temple for My name.'
1Ki 8:20 So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel.
1Ki 8:21 And there I have made a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD which He made with our fathers, when He brought them out of the land of Egypt."
1Ki 8:22 Then Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the assembly of Israel, and spread out his hands toward heaven;
1Ki 8:23 and he said: "LORD God of Israel, there is no God in heaven above or on earth below like You, who keep Your covenant and mercy with Your servants who walk before You with all their hearts.
1Ki 8:24 You have kept what You promised Your servant David my father; You have both spoken with Your mouth and fulfilled it with Your hand, as it is this day.


So who was the audience of 2 Sam 7? Who was suppose to fulfill this? Was it fulfilled?

Is it possible that there can be more than one type of fulfillment? Such as Acts 2:29-31 in this case? Could 2 Thes 1 be blended as 2 Samuel 7 is?
This "rest" is also mentioned in Hebrews 3 & 4. It doesn't seem to be exclusively about a second coming event. I could perhaps be about the relief that was to come to those who were being persecuted by the Jews. An event brought about directly by Jesus judgment of the Jews.

Also, what kind of man is Jesus?
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Also, if flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, and "flesh and blood" mean literal physical human beings, then what is to come of Enoch? Why is he considered faithful, and why did God "take" him if he can never enter the kingdom of God (since he never died)?

2 Samuel 7 first...

The context is well after David dies. The context is also about the seed of David. It is also about a throne of a kingdom forver (2 Samuel 7:13) David's house, kingdom, and throne would be established forever (2 Samuel 7:16). Do you really believe this is talking about "physical" David or our Lord Jesus Christ - who did establish His house, His throne and His kingdom forever. The main difference here is that definitely some time in the future that is clearly addressed. The apostle Paul was promising a living group of believers relief from the persecution at the coming of the Lord. An inspired apostle is not nor can he lie about something like that. I believe Paul's promise came true. No one is forcing you to believe the inspirational account. If you ever get anything out of 2 Samuel 7, please let it be the fact that God never intended to have a physical immoveable temple built, much the same way that He never wanted Israel to have a physical king to rule over them. Israel always desired the tangible and it would become their downfall in so many ways. One simple example was the Pharisaical view on things. They wanted a physical kingdom. Jesus came to give a spiritual kingdom. They wanted a physical throne. God never intended to rule physically over the nation ethnic nation of Israel. They wanted freedom from physical bondage (Roman Empire). Jesus came to give them freedom from sin (spiritual bondage). The Pharisees sought to kill Jesus because their theology did not match Jesus'. Many theologies match the Pharisaical desires...

And most importantly, I want you to notice how the inspired apostle Paul uses 2 Samuel 7:14 as a fulfillment to the church.

2 Samuel 7:13-14 - He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Notice what Paul says:

"And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (2 Corinthians 6:18)

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Hebrews 1:5)

Followed by:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8)


1 Kings 8 next...

You will need to read 1 Kings 9 and hear the words of the Lord as to what would happen to this "temporary" structure. Yet HE (the Lord) continues to talk of the everlasting kingdom. You know what happened. Israel became apostate and this temporary structure was destroyed. This one was not everlasting. Nor was the next one. It is Christ's kingdom that is everlasting...think spiritually.

Regarding Enoch, what passage in Scripture says that he died? What passage in Scripture says he was taken to heaven? What passage in Scripture says anything about where he ended up? The answers, none. According to John 3:13, no man had yet ascended to heaven before Christ's incarnation.

John 3:12 - If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Is Jesus Christ your King? Then let this be said of him, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Timothy 1:17) Note: This is AFTER His ascension...

I don't know about you, but this is how you should see: "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." (2 Corinthians 4:18)

As for Conquest's usual rude manner, words cannot express the way I feel...These are clearly idle words that will one day be accounted for.

[Conquest]

As for Conquest's usual rude manner, words cannot express the way I feel...These are clearly idle words that will one day be accounted for.

I would imagine Arius would have had similar “feelings” regarding Alexander who excommunicated the heretic for teaching Jesus Christ was a created being, not God. Those who seek to sow seeds of heresy are often “offended” when not allowed to argue from a neutral position.

According to John 3:13, no man had yet ascended to heaven before Christ's incarnation.

John 3:12 - If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Is Jesus Christ your King? Then let this be said of him, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Timothy 1:17) Note: This is AFTER His ascension...

The denial of the who and what of Jesus Christ and being told “how” a Christian should see a passage seemingly go hand in hand with those who to seek to sow the seeds of subterfuge in Christianities claim. Is God the Father not referred to in Scripture as King,

Ps110:1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”
Acts 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Those who would deny the who and what of Jesus Christ employ their proof text method lifting out of context a passage that begins with,

1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Indeed in less than 8 verses from the proof text offered by the poster who denies the who and what of Jesus Christ Paul reinforces the view that Jesus Christ is a man when he writes,

1 Tim2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

And indeed Paul reinforces that the “man” Christ Jesus is a “visible” man when he reports

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

Readers should give poster Mellontes a wide berth as he is arguing from a position that denies the who and what of Jesus Christ. He denies the doctrine of Christ.

2 John:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

Doctrine is important, understand the views of those whom you interact with as you may without realizing it be communicating with one who believes in a different person.

Conquest