Aionios means "Age to Age"?

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

I have stated over and over, and Steve Gregg has indicated so at least once, that the fact that a certain quality is present in an object does not necessitate that an adjective describing that object must possess that same quality.

So God is eternal, and when used in reference to God, aionios does not mean eternal? When speaking of an eternal God, you think it adds meaning to say He is "durable" or "lasting"? Are you serious? Surely you must have a better answer than this to the meaning of aionios!

In the case at hand, our Lord spoke of "lasting life" and "lasting correction" in the same breath.........
For another example, take the adjective "strong" in the sentence, "Samson was a strong man and Yahweh is a strong God".

It doesn't work Paidion. The first statement is antithetical, the second is not. In the first, aionios means the same and life and punishment are opposites, as they are throughout the scriptures: life as opposed to death.

In your second sentence, God and Sampson are not polar opposites and one is strong while the other is infinitely strong (stronger).

Blessings, Homer

[Paidion]

So God is eternal, and when used in reference to God, aionios does not mean eternal? When speaking of an eternal God, you think it adds meaning to say He is "durable" or "lasting"? Are you serious? Surely you must have a better answer than this to the meaning of aionios!

If you didn't KNOW that God is eternal, would it not be meaningful to say that He is permanent or lasting?

In the case at hand, our Lord spoke of "lasting life" and "lasting correction" in the same breath.........For another example, take the adjective "strong" in the sentence, "Samson was a strong man and Yahweh is a strong God".

It doesn't work Paidion. The first statement is antithetical, the second is not. In the first, aionios means the same and life and punishment are opposites, as they are throughout the scriptures

The word is "correction", Homer, not punishment.

Life and correction (or even life and punishment) are no more antithetical than God and Samson.

It works and is totally analogous.

[Todd]

So you argue that aionios refers to quality of a thing rather than time?

Homer,

Actually I argue that aionios refers to the source rather than time. Although I think Paidion makes a good argument, I'm not so sure that is the correct approach (but he may be right).

To me, the truest meaning of the word "eternal" is "without beginning or end'. Something that has always existed and will continue forevermore is eternal. Anything that has a beginning cannot be eternal. Take "life" for example; all life has a beginning and therefore cannot be eternal. The same could be said for correction or punishment, both have a beginning. Only God himself is truly eternal; everything else was created and therefore had a beginning. So, if something is given the attribute "eternal", it must have its source in God because only He is eternal. Therefore, eternal life is life from the Eternal One; eternal punishment is punishment having its source from God.

While it is true that Life having its source from God (eternal life) has a different quality than a life apart from God, it was not my argument that eternal meant quality.

Two good reasons to reject the idea of never-ending punishment are:
1. It is unjust. Infinite punishment for finite wrongdoings is unbalanced.
2. It serves no purpose. The only reason to punish someone is to correct.

Todd

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You asked:

If you didn't KNOW that God is eternal, would it not be meaningful to say that He is permanent or lasting?

With that modicum of information I would expect Him to be around awhile. But those being relative adjectives, as you have shown, I wouldn't have an idea of how long. I get eternal and everlasting.

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

You wrote:

The only reason to punish someone is to correct.

I will quote Paul for an example so that no one will say Moses made it up:

1 Corinthians 10-11 (New King James Version)

1. Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3. all ate the same spiritual food, 4. and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8. Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9. nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10. nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Paul informs us that God punished the Israelites in the desert to correct us. What correction occurred for the 23,000, slain in one day, for immorality? A great number of incidents could be cited where there seemed to be no intention to correct.

[Todd]

Hi Todd,

You wrote:

The only reason to punish someone is to correct.

I will quote Paul for an example so that no one will say Moses made it up:

1 Corinthians 10-11 (New King James Version)

1. Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2. all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3. all ate the same spiritual food, 4. and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6. Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8. Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9. nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10. nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Paul informs us that God punished the Israelites in the desert to correct us. What correction occurred for the 23,000, slain in one day, for immorality? A great number of incidents could be cited where there seemed to be no intention to correct.

Homer,

These punishments that you are referring to led to the death of those individuals. Never does it say that they were sentenced to never-ending punishment after their resurrection. Their death is not the final word, but may very well be a part of a remedial punishment that has a reconciling result. They will meet the Lord again to on judgment day complete the corrective process.

Matt 11:24
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Todd

[Paidion]

Todd, I think that Homer may be saying that correction is not the only purpose of punishment. Another purpose is to deter, a purpose clearly indicated in the underlined portions of the Scripture which he quoted.

[Todd]

Todd, I think that Homer may be saying that correction is not the only purpose of punishment. Another purpose is to deter, a purpose clearly indicated in the underlined portions of the Scripture which he quoted.

The punishment of one group can be used as an example to deter others from the same destructive path, yes, I agree; however, that first group was not punished solely to be an example for us, they were punished because of what they did. And as you have said before, all God's punishments are remedial.

Todd

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

You wrote:

....that first group was not punished solely to be an example for us, they were punished because of what they did. And as you have said before, all God's punishments are remedial.

Please explain how the first group were remediated by their punishment.

Blessings, Homer