Insurance for Healthcare

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:48 pm

your comment would depend upon a certain sort of theory-of-ownership. A more social theory-of-ownership would not sustain your argument.
What part of the scriptures give the idea that communal ownership of property is established by God? (Of course, the scripture has numerous examples of private property - e.g. laws against theft).
The government is “required” to provide what society assigns for it to provide. Government is the agent of society.
All actions everywhere are carried out by individuals. To say the "society assigns", or "society extends", etc,. is incorrect. Rather it should be said that particular individuals are acting in one way or another. On every issue individuals disagree with each other. Thus essentially all actions of the State are nothing more than one group of individuals using force to implement their will against another group of individuals.
As such governing shepherds have the potential to make a significant difference in yielding a more moral citizenry – including through forcing people to behave better than they would otherwise, thus inculcating better habits and molding a healthier sense of conventional wisdom.
All people have a different scale of values pertaining to the options that are available to themselves. Such an effort invariably entails coercing some against their will to do what someone else believes is "better and healthier" for them. Is this not an endorsement of the tyranny of the majority?
The purpose of public education is not to provide citizens who are parents with a free service. The purpose is to provide the entire society with the benefits of a better-educated populace ... facilitate the pursuit of justice through perceptive testimony and thoughtful jury service.
This and all similar socialists ideas suffer from the problem of economic calculation. There are finite resources available to carry out such tasks. How does any citizen or government official delegated to the task of distribution of resources know whether the benefits are worth the costs? How is it known whether there is too much, or too little education - would those resources be better spent elsewhere? It cannot be argued that everyone in society benefits - some will benefit, others will not. On the other hand, only in an unhampered free market where prices are voluntarily paid to those selling services can a balance be achieved which is commensurate with the desires of individual consumers.

Public education is again tantamount to one group of individuals being placed in a position to propagate their ideas at the expense of others. The law of nature shows that God gives children to parents, not the State. It is thus for parents to direct the teaching of their own children, and not compel others to teach their children in a certain way.

It is actually to the detriment of the judicial system for citizens to be educated by the State. Inevitably, when the state controls eduction, the educational program becomes a means to inculcate its pupils towards Statism. It has been openly state by a US supreme court judge that the goal of the public educational system is to inculcate a set of values among children. The semi-monopoly of public education is very much to the detriment of an independently minded jury.
... is better equipped to muster for military draft
Is not a draft immoral? From where does the State acquire a right to involuntarily dispose of the life of its citizens as it pleases for its own preservation?

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Michelle
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:16 pm

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by Michelle » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:14 am

petomaryland wrote:Well as far as I know there is no draft right now, and the tyrannical state is probably just what it sounds like, but the part that gets me mad is that the state workers get paid ALOT of money for doing the covetous work that they do, still God acts like that's not important at all. We knew the computer age was comin, and jobs would be lost. Also even the third world countries don't even want to fight, they're the ones suffering the most, I think. A jehovahs witness family I knew were farmers and what happened to all those farms and jobs, and then the price of everything just can't get any worse. My friend, (my son) said the american dollar and everyone else's wont be worth too much if things don't change. I love sacred rituals, we'll just continue to evangelise. My friend says, if he has enough money, that is.
Wait...you get mad at God for being patient and holding back His judgement?

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:54 pm

petomaryland wrote:We knew the computer age was comin, and jobs would be lost ... and then the price of everything just can't get any worse.
When you mentioned the price of things cannot be worse, do you mean that lower prices brought about by technological improvements are detrimental? It should be considered that although technological improvements hurt particular people who have an investment in an obsolete, or less efficient skill, that on the other hand the lower prices of products is a great benefit to everyone else. Without the creation of labor savings devices of all sorts, products everyone now enjoys at low cost would be unavailable or much more expensive. Even though the economic transition from without a labor saving device to employing it will bring a certain amount of hardship; the end result is that more goods and services created and made available for consumption by everyone - and that at lower prices too! Hence, almost everyone will benefit from a technological improvement. Henry Hazlit's book, Economics in One Lesson, which is readily available online, well explains this idea.

SteveF

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by SteveF » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:32 pm

Steve wrote:
The maintenance of roads may be said to be consistent with the government's general duty to maintain a just society, since both military and police functioning are enhanced by the presence of good highways. In fact, I am under the impression that this was a primary purpose of the legendary road systems of the Roman Empire. Once those roads are in place, I believe the government may regulate civilian traffic upon them—again for the general security of the public against criminally wreckless negligence.
Hi Steve, although this may be true of the Romans (I don't know one way or the other for sure) I don't think this was the motivation for the first paved roads in the United States. Benjamin Franklin first introduced paved roads in the U.S. for the same reason he introduced the first street lights, fire station, public library, public hospital, garbage collection and full time police force. It was for the betterment of the city he lived in, Philadelphia. \

There are enviromentalists who make an argument against having so many paved roads. I won't go into their arguments but would you consider it unjust for their tax dollars to go towards the paving of and maintenance of roads they don't think should be paved?

Here in Canada, universal health care is extremely popular. The person who fought for and obtained it was a former baptist minister and he faced very heavy opposition form medical unions etc.. He was recentley voted the most popular Canadian of all time because of, what most Canadians consider, his heroic fight to bring in universal health care. If so many people are in favour of something would you still consider it an unjust tax? I'm sure there are some Canadian's somewhere that want a private healthcare system, but I haven't personally met one.

Thanks in advance for considering my question.

Steve

SteveF

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by SteveF » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:38 pm

Thrombomodulin wrote
What part of the scriptures give the idea that communal ownership of property is established by God? (Of course, the scripture has numerous examples of private property - e.g. laws against theft).
Democracy isn't mentioned in the bible either. Are we not in a unique situation whereby we need to try and understand how to live as a Christian in a governmental system/society not even mentioned in scripture.
All actions everywhere are carried out by individuals. To say the "society assigns", or "society extends", etc,. is incorrect. Rather it should be said that particular individuals are acting in one way or another. On every issue individuals disagree with each other. Thus essentially all actions of the State are nothing more than one group of individuals using force to implement their will against another group of individuals.
Pete, are you simply expressing your disdain for democracy? I want to understand what you're saying, because that was my impression.

Thanks
Steve

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by thrombomodulin » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:16 am

Indeed, democracy is not mentioned in the bible, however, I do not think this is any great problem for evaluating our situation. It must be realized that all government systems consist of particular individuals applying force to carry out their decrees - because the use of force, or the threat of the use of force, is the only means by which a government can carry out its will. It seems to me that one individual has lawful authority over another only to the whatever extent God has authorized it. Lacking any direction from God, or the law of nature, how could it possibly be established that any one man has authority over another? If this is so, then democracy is only an extension of the same concept multiplied many times over - one group of individuals (the majority) is forcing their will upon another group of individuals (the minority).

It is not democracy that I disdain, rather it is the idea that government has unlimited authority to do whatever it wishes because such is a system reduces to a "tyranny of the majority". On the other hand, I have high regard for a limited form of government, such as that designed by the founding fathers of the USA. This government was designed with the intent to limit the functions of government to a handful of particular tasks enumerated in the constitution - and all other functions were withheld. By limiting the power of government, the coercion of the majority is prevented.

P.S. What is perhaps the first book length treatment ever of the Privatization of Roads and Highways has recently been released by Walter Block. I am looking forward to reading it, but for now I will say no more as I am not yet exposed to the arguments contained in this book.

SteveF

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by SteveF » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:54 am

It is not democracy that I disdain, rather it is the idea that government has unlimited authority to do whatever it wishes because such is a system reduces to a "tyranny of the majority". On the other hand, I have high regard for a limited form of government, such as that designed by the founding fathers of the USA. This government was designed with the intent to limit the functions of government to a handful of particular tasks enumerated in the constitution - and all other functions were withheld. By limiting the power of government, the coercion of the majority is prevented.
Hi Pete, I had about a dozen questions run through my mind when I read this but I'll ask one question that's in keeping with the makeup of this forum. Do you see your views as the political philosophy that's the most appealing or do you consider your views to be distinctly Christian some way?
P.S. What is perhaps the first book length treatment ever of the Privatization of Roads and Highways has recently been released by Walter Block. I am looking forward to reading it, but for now I will say no more as I am not yet exposed to the arguments contained in this book.
We have a privately owned and run highway in our city. It costs the regular user hundreds of dollars a month to use. Since it's a topic that seems to interest you I'll provide a link to their website. If you have any questions about the highway you can PM me.

http://www.407etr.com/

Oh Yeah, when referring to the U.S. constitution you’ll need to dumb it down a little for me. I have never read the constitution and only have a general understanding of what it contains.

THanks
Steve

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by thrombomodulin » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:32 pm

Do you see your views as the political philosophy that's the most appealing or do you consider your views to be distinctly Christian some way?
I see them as distinctly Christian. But I will say that I am only at the beginning of learning about this area. I have been reading John Locke's treatises on civil government, and also learning via dialog with a friend of mine who is well read in this and similar books - for a list of authors see http://www.lonang.com. Authors such as these have made efforts to use the scripture and the law of nature to discern the limitations of and the jurisdiction of civil government. Namely, the individuals in government have no authority over other individuals except within the extent and limits of jurisdiction which God has authorized.
I have never read the constitution and only have a general understanding of what it contains.
The declaration of independence asserts the purpose of civil government is to secure liberty for its citizens That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed,...

Following this objective, the government subsequently created was established as a republic, where an effort was made to decentralize power from any individual or branch of government. The constitution enumerates the functions the federal government was authorized to carry out, and prohibits all others Article X - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. . Of course, the Federal government has since then continually expanded far beyond its constitutional limits.

Thanks for the 407etr link

SteveF

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by SteveF » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:44 pm

I see them as distinctly Christian. But I will say that I am only at the beginning of learning about this area. I have been reading John Locke's treatises on civil government, and also learning via dialog with a friend of mine who is well read in this and similar books - for a list of authors see http://www.lonang.com. Authors such as these have made efforts to use the scripture and the law of nature to discern the limitations of and the jurisdiction of civil government. Namely, the individuals in government have no authority over other individuals except within the extent and limits of jurisdiction which God has authorized.
Hi Pete, perhaps it is premature to ask this question. You said you’re still working through this subject but I was wondering why you consider your view a Christian view? (I'm not saying it is or isn't)

If you don’t mind I’d like to present a few scenarios you can comment on in hope I can better understand where you’re coming from.

Public Pools
Toronto provides free swimming times in public pools funded by taxpayers. This provides an opportunity for low income families to participate.

The city next to Toronto, Mississauga, has public owned pools as well but always charges entrance fees.

A third (hypothetical) city has no public pools (I’m not aware of any city that doesn’t have public pools). They leave it to private industry to build pools and charge fees as they wish.

Is one of these positions more Christian than the other or are none of them particularly Christian or non-Christian?

African Aid
During George W. Bush’s presidency he tripled the aid to African countries ($15 billion) to help them deal with issues like Malaria and AIDS. Bush’s policy saved millions of African lives.

Do you see this policy as Christian, non-Christian or neither?


Financial Market Regulations
Prior to the stock market crash in 1929 Insider Trading was completely legal. Pretty much everyone knew it was going on and considered it part of the “game”. Unfortunately, Insider Trading was a major contributor to the collapse of the financial markets. Therefore, for what they considered the good of society, the U.S. federal government instituted regulations forbidding Insider Trading.

Do you see this policy as Christian, non-Christian or neither?

Epidemic
Here’s a hypothetical scenario. A life threatening epidemic breaks out in Australia and the Federal Government provides a free emergency vaccine to the entire population (Including the poor and homeless) saving millions of lives. The cost of the vaccine results in a small tax increase.

Do you see this policy as Christian, non-Christian or neither?


I’m actually not looking to find out what your personal preference is but rather if you consider something Christian, non-Christian or neither and why. For example, you may rightly state that the colours pink and green clash but that observation doesn’t make it a “Christian” position.

The reason I want to pick your brain is, to be honest, I find the relation between American Christians and their government perplexing. I’m hoping to better understand the situation.

Don’t feel obligated to answer the questions!! After all, you stated, “I am only at the beginning of learning about this area”.

Thanks
Steve

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by thrombomodulin » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:19 am

Steve,

I had not logged in for a couple days and just today saw your message. I'm almost finished writing a letter to another Christian who holds the opposite opinion as myself. At the moment I'm just waiting for a friend of mine to finish reviewing it. I will post a link here to the message when I post it, and I think it will address all but perhaps one of the examples you raised, for the same biblical principle apply to your examples.

Peter

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