Did God know?

[Guest]

"How can it be 'theoreticly possible' if double-presentation is true. This is an illogical statement. Either you are elect or not."

Sean, we gotta clear something up, are you deliberately misconstruing what I write, or is your misunderstanding genuine? I will assume the latter and reply to misunderstanding. It is theoreticly possible in the sense that we don't know the outcome of the test until it is done. From our perspective, going in, Cain could make other choices. The question is posed to all of us the same way so as to be fair. Those that are sons of perdition or satan's children respond to the question the same way every time, by refusing the right thing. It is also theoreticly possible in that both us, the observers and Cain the respondent can see themselves responding positively in a hypothetical way. The fact that they do not respond positively is proof of who they are.

"God said 'if you do well will you not be accepted'? Meaning choice. The 'ball' is in his court. I mean, if God is one of choice then how could He have stated it any clearer? He could have just meant what He said, and yes, it applies to all of us too."

I don't see how God's statement to Cain is any less true simply because Cain's response is foreknown or predestined. It's like saying, "If Pigs had Wings". They don't of course. You also refer to choice, and choice is most certainly not "Free Will". Choices are between things, "Free Will" defies choice by creating choices, not picking between things.

"Sure, God could still save Cain. I mean, he could just save everyone (I don't think He will, just making a point)."

It sounds like you just moved into predestination's camp.

"Well when you presuppose that free will is non-existent then I guess you are right. I mean, when you have already made a conclusion before going to the text then there really is no reason to discuss the text, it's no longer relevant. The presupposition overrides anything the text says."

All my conclusions come from the text. They could be wrong ones but I read scripture many many many times before arriving at the conclusions I have arrived at. It was constant exposure to God's word that led me to these conclusions.

"I can also quote free will passages and prove free will exists. Does it really make sense to just quote some of the Bible as if the rest of it doesn't exist?"

Sorry, but I don't think the Scriptures are as ambivalent as you seem to claim. I also (as politely as I can) defy you to show me "Free Will" in the scriptures.

Hugh McBryde

[Guest]

For instance, God is determined to bring about the salvation of the world through the ministry of Jesus Christ, no matter how impossible it might seem.

Yes, Damon, yes! If this is what is meant by determinism or "predestination" I wholly concur!

God determines to fulfill His purposes and all the free will agents in the Universe cannot stop Him!

God determined to solve the problem of fallen man's inability to do right, by sending his Son to die on our behalf.

"He died that we might no longer live for ourselves, but for Him...."
2 Corinthians 5:15

In my opinion, the biggest plan of all is the reconciliation of all to God
Colossians 1:20. He will accomplish this no matter how many people exert their free will. And God has all the time in the Universe! No rebel can hold out forever!

But many people are not referring to God's purpose when they speak of "determinism" and "predestination". Some mean that every HUMAN act has been predetermined by God.

They believe that the whole world is a stage, and all people actors. We are all acting out a script which cannot be altered and we all have the illusion of free will.

This makes God the author of evil, and robs man of his free will.

[Guest]

"How can it be 'theoreticly possible' if double-presentation is true. This is an illogical statement. Either you are elect or not."

Sean, we gotta clear something up, are you deliberately misconstruing what I write, or is your misunderstanding genuine? I will assume the latter and reply to misunderstanding. It is theoreticly possible in the sense that we don't know the outcome of the test until it is done. From our perspective, going in, Cain could make other choices. The question is posed to all of us the same way so as to be fair. Those that are sons of perdition or satan's children respond to the question the same way every time, by refusing the right thing. It is also theoreticly possible in that both us, the observers and Cain the respondent can see themselves responding positively in a hypothetical way. The fact that they do not respond positively is proof of who they are.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you. I'll try to be clear. I'm not talking about what "appears" to be possible, for the sake of this discussion I'm talking about what "is" possible.

I'll restate the question. When God says 'If you do well, you will be accepted' is God speaking a coherent sentence? Is God extending an option to Cain? I'm not talking about hypothetically from our perspective, I'm talking about from God's perspective. Why would God tell Cain two possible outcomes could result dependent on what he did if only one were possible? Certainly this passage does not do the elect or non-elect any good, since you would say that we don't make a choice anyway. So why tell Cain choices matter (pertaining to being accepted or not), if they don't?

"God said 'if you do well will you not be accepted'? Meaning choice. The 'ball' is in his court. I mean, if God is one of choice then how could He have stated it any clearer? He could have just meant what He said, and yes, it applies to all of us too."

I don't see how God's statement to Cain is any less true simply because Cain's response is foreknown or predestined. It's like saying, "If Pigs had Wings". They don't of course. You also refer to choice, and choice is most certainly not "Free Will". Choices are between things, "Free Will" defies choice by creating choices, not picking between things.

Some of this I covered above. You don't see how God's statement is less true if the option He gave isn't an option???

It's like saying: "Class, you can only pass my course by hard study or flying to the sun".

So how many options do you have? One, because only one is valid.

Anyone listening would know that. Did Cain know he only had one option?

If Cain couldn't understand the inner workings of double-predestination, and how one option by God was only theoretical like "flying pigs" then why didn't God speak at his level?

"Free Will" can be defined either way:
free will (from dictionary.com)
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

"Sure, God could still save Cain. I mean, he could just save everyone (I don't think He will, just making a point)."

It sounds like you just moved into predestination's camp.

By only quoting (or reading) half of what I wrote, you missed my point.

"Well when you presuppose that free will is non-existent then I guess you are right. I mean, when you have already made a conclusion before going to the text then there really is no reason to discuss the text, it's no longer relevant. The presupposition overrides anything the text says."

All my conclusions come from the text. They could be wrong ones but I read scripture many many many times before arriving at the conclusions I have arrived at. It was constant exposure to God's word that led me to these conclusions.

But reading the text here God presents a choice. If Cain can't make a choice because God ordained it for him, then God is being deceptive, leading people to believe they have a choice when they do not.

"I can also quote free will passages and prove free will exists. Does it really make sense to just quote some of the Bible as if the rest of it doesn't exist?"

Sorry, but I don't think the Scriptures are as ambivalent as you seem to claim. I also (as politely as I can) defy you to show me "Free Will" in the scriptures.

Hugh McBryde

Let's start with a definition of "free will". I quoted one from dictionary.com but you seem to disagree with definition #1. So I'm at a loss. You could say you like definition #2. Would this be correct?

[Guest]

It could be that free will is generally the plan that God allows in this age but ultimately when God determines to do something or predestines to accomplish his will or desire or wish then an example of how man's free will stands up to this is found in Paul's example when Christ revealed himself to him. Paul who called himself "the chief sinner" and hated Christians lasted about 30 seconds when face to face with Christ. Since Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said he was "chief sinner" which he said for a reason than why would anyone else do much better?

[Guest]

Calvinism adheres to the most limiting philosophical notion of foreknowledge possible. Calvinism really believes two different things about foreknowledge or the things that God foreknows. 1) They believe that God’s knowledge is a necessary cause of all things. (i.e., if God knows something than He has caused it) This view was famously defended by Thomas Aquinas who made no distinction between what God causes and what He permits. 2) Calvinism also places God’s foreknowledge logically after He decrees the world and limits His foreknowledge on only the world that He knows will come to pass.

This view of foreknowledge is more than limiting for God. It philosophically places God into a jam. God is the active force behind all things because He knows all things that will come to pass; however, Calvinists are at great pains to explain the origin of evil and to alleviate God from being the active author of evil. They have no philosophical explanation nor do they attempt to discover one, because there is none, rather they hide behind calling it a mystery.

The problem with this view of foreknowledge is that it pretends that God hasn’t given mankind "what if" situations or "if-then" situations that are extremely familiar to mankind and are a part of our daily life. Does God know what would happen if I traveled to Europe tomorrow? Does He know what would happen if I repented of sin? What if I did not repent? What if I drove my car off a cliff? What if I decided to pray or not? Does God know what my life would look like if He created me to live in the 16th century or the 24th century? What if I have 6 children or 2 children? Does God know what each of my lives would look like? Of course He does! He is God and is omniscient (knows all things).

Because Calvinists place God’s knowledge subsequent to His decree, they leave no room for the infinite "what if’s" that we human deal with on a daily basis. They simply pass over these realities and only acknowledge that humans are doing exactly what God wants us to do, but paradoxically, we aren’t robots, because no one actually believes that. That wouldn’t stand up well in a court of law.. would it. "I killed my wife because it was what God foreknew, therefore I had to do it. God knew and caused it through me."

What happens if we place God’s foreknowledge before the decree of the world? Well, this rips out the foundation of any intact system that the Calvinist had, plus it puts God outside the box that they have created. It is very scary for them because now God is much bigger than before. He is much more sovereign. Let me explain. With a Calvinist/Augustinian view there is one logical moment before God creates the world. God knows the range of possible worlds that He might create; then he chooses one of these to be actual. A non-Calvinist, like myself, would claim well there are actually two logical moments before God creates or decrees the world. 1st- God knows like the Calvinist model all the ranges of possible worlds He could create. Infinite in number. 2nd- God has knowledge of the proper subset of possible worlds that would exist given His knowledge of all the "what-if’s" that could occur if He gave mankind an element of choice. After this point, God picks a world for His sovereign reasons already knowing what our infinite amount of choices look like.

What this means is that God knows a lot more than what you simply are going to choose. It’s true that God knows the choice you are going to make at 8:00am on Decmber 7th, 2009, but His foreknowledge of you is actually much greater. He knows what you are going to choose at that time because He actually knows every possible choice you could ever make in any given world with any given revelation at 8:00 am in any time frame.

God’s foreknowledge of our choices means that His knowledge is certain, not necessary. God certainly knows what we would do in any situation. But just because God certainly knows doesn’t mean that we will necessarily act one way. God’s knowledge of all things before His creation of the world gives mankind an element of choice. It’s not free-will like we choose in a vacuum as our own little Gods, but God has deemed it wise and good to give mankind the ability to reject or accept His revelations of Himself. God’s knowledge of all things is not only limited to Him knowing exactly what direction I will eventually drive today in my car, but also includes the knowledge of what would happen if I made a left turn, if I didn’t leave the house or if I stopped at a stop sign for 5 seconds longer than normal. God’s knowledge of what "will" actually come to pass comes logically after His extensive sovereign knowledge of everything that "would" come to pass. God has created an infinite number of "would be" situations that we make choices under everyday in the present. These "would be" situations allow us various choices and an element of freedom that God is happy to respond to as we live in the "present." What "will be", while ultimately known by God, remains a "would be" until things are archived into the past tense.

God remains omniscient over all points of knowledge and while He knows what will certainly comes to pass, He 1st knows everything that can potentially comes to pass. His relationship and pleas with mankind are genuine. When Jesus weeps over Jerusalem because they would not follow Him, He certainly knew that it would eventually end up that way, but He 1st knew what it would have looked like if they did repent. Every time someone rejects God and makes a choice against God, God knew what it would have looked like if that person had repented and followed God. Every time we choose things that are less than what God would want for us, God knows what we could have had. Every time we give into sin, God knows what our lives would have looked like if we had asked for the strength to persevere against temptation.

Mankind, while horribly steeped in sin, gets real opportunities for repentance and gets to make real choices to seek out the revelations that God gives them. Our will isn’t free to avoid sin, but it is free to trust the truth, to not resist the Holy Spirit, to ask for forgiveness when humbled and to seek out God. While every mans opportunities differ when compared to each other, they will all be counted as fair when that man faces God at the judgment. I have not "seen" the miracles that others have seen, yet I know that God has been fair with me and will hold me in account for what He has revealed to me. So it will be with everyone that God has created. All will give an account of the various revelation that they have rejected or accepted. The people who have had more revelation will be judged more strict and those who have been given less will wisely be judged less hard by God.

We should not rob God of the good creation that He has established. If God has seen it fit to give mankind an element of choice, we must recognize that is a very important part of his world and that we play a certain role. When we share the gospel, we are giving someone more of God’s revelation. When someone reveals God’s "will" more clearly to us, we best humble ourselves and consult God through prayer to ask how best to utilize the choices that God has sovereignly given us.

Anyhoo,


WHAT SAY YOU?


Paul Legge

[Guest]

God’s foreknowledge of our choices means that His knowledge is certain, not necessary. God certainly knows what we would do in any situation. But just because God certainly knows doesn’t mean that we will necessarily act one way.

If you are saying what you seem to be saying, then you would agree that the following is a possible scenario:


1. God knows that Paul will raise his hand on August 15, at 9 P.M.

2. On August 15 at 9 P.M., Paul decides not to raise his hand, and in fact doesn't.

These sentences are inconsistent. Both of these sentences CANNOT logically be true.

Therefore, either #1 is false, that is, God does NOT know that Paul will raise his hand on August 15 at 9 P.M.

or

#2 is false, that is, Paul cannot refrain from raising his hand on August 15 at 9 P.M., and therefore does not have the free will to refrain.

TAKE YOUR CHOICE .

One or the other, but not both.

[Guest]

Thanks to Paul for the interesting, insightful post. Seems clear to me.

1. God is aware of every choice available to Paul at 9PM on August 15 and also can foresee what Paul will choose based on his infinate knowledge of Paul and every factor involved.

2. Paul freely chooses to do what God knew he would do.

What's the big deal with this? We had a dog for years who was very predictable in his response in many situations. My knowledge of what he would do did not affect his free will. God's infinate knowledge of me and circumstances I will face is incomparably greater than my knowledge of my dog. I fail to see how His foreknowledge affects my free choice.

God knows what my choice will be and I am totally responsible for it.

[Guest]

"This view of foreknowledge is more than limiting for God. It philosophically places God into a jam. God is the active force behind all things because He knows all things that will come to pass; however, Calvinists are at great pains to explain the origin of evil and to alleviate God from being the active author of evil."

Whoa there, it's not a problem for me.

Hugh McBryde

[Guest]

Paidion-

If God knows that I will do something, then of course it will come to pass. No one can deny this. What I affirm is that God also knows of a choice that He sovereignly gave me before He knows what will come to pass. I affirm that God is so sovereign, that He can choose to give mankind an element of choice. You affirm that God isn't sovereign enough to give mankind a choice. I affirm that God of course knows what will come to pass, He is all-knowing. But I view God's omniscience a little higher in thinking that God has to know everything that could be if He allowed it to be. Understanding God's omniscience as God only knowing what will come to pass is placing God in a manmade Calvinist box. If God is all-knowing in His own immutible existence before the creation of the world then He can't not know everything that could potentially come to pass if He were to create it. He already knows our beginning from our end. Sure, God could create mankind in the Calvinist mind frame and actively cause all things through him without secondary causal agents, He is after all sovereign. I am not going to try and defend some arbitary will of man that God has to cater to. But, I also do not deny, that because God, is indeed sovereign after all, can choose out of His own good pleasurable will to know mankind with an element of will that is free under His sovereignty. God has every right to create mankind with an element of choice if He wants to.

I always laugh at when Calvinist's mock non-Calvinists view points especially when it comes to God's foreknowledge. Calvinist's are quick to shrug the notion that God "looks down the corridor of time to view man's choices." Frankly, I shrug at that description too, because it's horribly stated. God doesn't look anywhere, He already knows. In fact, He can't not know. He has always known before He decreed the world.

God's knows an infinite amount of potential worlds that He could decree if He so chose to. He likewise, knows an infinite amount of worlds that He could decree, that would include mankind with an element of relative free will. He can choose to decree any of these worlds that He already knows to be actual for His soverreign reasons and still retain mankind having an element of will. God in decreeing this world of course knows every event small and large that will come to pass, He knows every second; however, this knowledge is neither the beginning or ending of His knowledge. It is more of a logical deduction of what God already knew in His own sovereign immutable foreknowledge of everything that could ever potentially be.

God could have created a world where everybody would be saved of their own free will, but perhaps that wasn't most glorifying to him. God could have created a world where we were not made in his image either. In your defense, God could have created of world where He directly causes everything that people do and then also somehow holds them in account mysteriously; however, you have yet to admit that God is sovereign enough to give mankind an element of free will if He wanted to. Is God sovereign enough to create mankind with an element of choice to accept or deny his mercy and to let people's trip to hell be their will and not His.

I used to be a hard pressed five pointer, double predestination, Calvinist, because it was the only way that Calvinism at least made philosophical/logical sense, until I was presented with crude truth that God is sovereign enough to know a man's choice. Before this, I never, gave that non-calvinist view point a fair look because I always black holed the position as exegetically inferior. I had my romans 9, eph 1 proof texts and the rest of the scripture flowed from these presuppositions of double predestination. Thankfully, I eventually reconsidered my position, thanks to God's grace, and gave it another look, although it took over three years to de-calvinite myself.

Homer- Thank you for your comments. I'm glad someone was able to understand my babble.

Prakk- After reading some of your posts, I thought you might give some more insightful discussion. I hope you still will. You have everything to prove with your position philosophically. Biblically, I would be curious to see your treatment on Romans 5. I have yet to find an honest Calvinist with this passage. Please enlighten me if you can.

Paidion and Prakk- It would mean more to me and have a much higher chance of getting me to consider your positional thoughts to have you actually respond to the points in my posts that I believe deserve some treatment rather than simply showing me that you can use the cut and paste function to a single quote and then tell me that you don't agree.

What say you...

Paul Legge

[Guest]

"This view of foreknowledge is more than limiting for God. It philosophically places God into a jam. God is the active force behind all things because He knows all things that will come to pass; however, Calvinists are at great pains to explain the origin of evil and to alleviate God from being the active author of evil."

Whoa there, it's not a problem for me.

Hugh McBryde

That's true, because your a consistent Calvinist and believe in double predestination. And I respect you for that. So the origin of evil isn't a problem for you.