So 2 Corinthians 5 isn't beefy enough for the believer?
On the positive side in 2nd Cor 5 Paul sounds like he believes he will receive his heavenly body soon,
"Meanwhile we groan longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" 2 Cor 5.2 . If he knew he would'nt receive this heavenly dwelling for 2,000 years he would'nt use the phrase "groan."
So what's the problem? What will it take to convince you if you don't pay attention to the logic within you?
On the other hand , does he know that the last trump is 70AD? He did'nt disclose any date at all so it may be that God simply did'nt give him dates, because it is simply not for Paul to know. Paul has hope but it sounds like he thinks the last trump is in his lifetime which it was'nt therefore he may not have known anything at all about dates.
In 1st Cor 15.28 Paul says after the resurrection , after all enemies are under Christ's feet, after all dominion, authority and power is destroyed (evil) then "God will be all in all."
Jesus taught Paul all these things. He said he got his revelation from Jesus but yet you think he was just hoping. Does that resemble inspiration or guessing?
Allyn,
One of the reasons i like to engage in discussions like this is because it makes me focus on something i might never have thought through before , and i see in 2nd Cor 5 Paul is simply speaking in the present tense. We all want to validate our belief paradigms with as many verses as possible yet i think he is not relating this to either 70AD or a future judgment day. He speaks in the present tense and then goes on to say in 2 Cor 6 that he would rather be away from the body and present with the Lord. It's all present tense and he never uses the actual word "immortal" he uses "life" and "eternal" in 2 Cor 5 which Jesus says we already have by knowing God.
Re your comment about Jesus teaching Paul "all these things" , yes he did and Paul revealed all these things in clear detail yet the time of these things is conspicously missing therefore IMO we must conclude this detail was not one of "all these things" or else Paul would have revealed it.
Full-Preterism and it's consequences
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
I'm not following you here, steve. Are you saying that the body held in heaven was only for Paul?Allyn,
One of the reasons i like to engage in discussions like this is because it makes me focus on something i might never have thought through before , and i see in 2nd Cor 5 Paul is simply speaking in the present tense. We all want to validate our belief paradigms with as many verses as possible yet i think he is not relating this to either 70AD or a future judgment day. He speaks in the present tense and then goes on to say in 2 Cor 6 that he would rather be away from the body and present with the Lord. It's all present tense and he never uses the actual word "immortal" he uses "life" and "eternal" in 2 Cor 5 which Jesus says we already have by knowing God.
Re your comment about Jesus teaching Paul "all these things" , yes he did and Paul revealed all these things in clear detail yet the time of these things is conspicously missing therefore IMO we must conclude this detail was not one of "all these things" or else Paul would have revealed it.
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
So 2 Corinthians 5 isn't beefy enough for the believer?
On the positive side in 2nd Cor 5 Paul sounds like he believes he will receive his heavenly body soon,
"Meanwhile we groan longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" 2 Cor 5.2 . If he knew he would'nt receive this heavenly dwelling for 2,000 years he would'nt use the phrase "groan."
So what's the problem? What will it take to convince you if you don't pay attention to the logic within you?
My point was in 2 Cor 5 , Paul is speaking continually in the present tense and is describing the heavenly body he expects to receive when he dies. In fact since you believe Christ told Paul "all things" and since Paul speaks here and in 2 Cor 6 in the present tense and since this letter was written around 55AD it appears to me this has nothing to do with 70AD or a future judgment day.
On the positive side in 2nd Cor 5 Paul sounds like he believes he will receive his heavenly body soon,
"Meanwhile we groan longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" 2 Cor 5.2 . If he knew he would'nt receive this heavenly dwelling for 2,000 years he would'nt use the phrase "groan."
So what's the problem? What will it take to convince you if you don't pay attention to the logic within you?
My point was in 2 Cor 5 , Paul is speaking continually in the present tense and is describing the heavenly body he expects to receive when he dies. In fact since you believe Christ told Paul "all things" and since Paul speaks here and in 2 Cor 6 in the present tense and since this letter was written around 55AD it appears to me this has nothing to do with 70AD or a future judgment day.
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
Steve,
I am curious as to what you think this passage means, specifically in regard to the "labour."
2 Corinthians 5:9 - Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
If it is as you say, that the "body" being absent means that the saint has died (physical human body perishing), how can it be that he can still labour with the intent of being accepted? I am under the impression that our labours cease after death and any determination for us being accepted must be in the living realm.
Hint: This cannot be explained by using human bodies...only covenant bodies - the Adamic body and the new covenant body in Christ. Both of these "bodies" occur in the living realm.
I am curious as to what you think this passage means, specifically in regard to the "labour."
2 Corinthians 5:9 - Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
If it is as you say, that the "body" being absent means that the saint has died (physical human body perishing), how can it be that he can still labour with the intent of being accepted? I am under the impression that our labours cease after death and any determination for us being accepted must be in the living realm.
Hint: This cannot be explained by using human bodies...only covenant bodies - the Adamic body and the new covenant body in Christ. Both of these "bodies" occur in the living realm.
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
steve7150 wrote:So 2 Corinthians 5 isn't beefy enough for the believer?
On the positive side in 2nd Cor 5 Paul sounds like he believes he will receive his heavenly body soon,
"Meanwhile we groan longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" 2 Cor 5.2 . If he knew he would'nt receive this heavenly dwelling for 2,000 years he would'nt use the phrase "groan."
So what's the problem? What will it take to convince you if you don't pay attention to the logic within you?
My point was in 2 Cor 5 , Paul is speaking continually in the present tense and is describing the heavenly body he expects to receive when he dies. In fact since you believe Christ told Paul "all things" and since Paul speaks here and in 2 Cor 6 in the present tense and since this letter was written around 55AD it appears to me this has nothing to do with 70AD or a future judgment day.
Hi steve,
I see what you are saying but I think you are missing my point and what I believe is being taught. Paul knew he would die (did not know when but soon) and he like other believers of the day who came into faith through Christ would not go to the place where those under the Old Covenant were being held. They went immidiately to heaven. Pre-cross, all saints died and remained in Hades until the resurrection which Daniel described has happening to his people only. Concerning pre-cross people - all died but only Daniels people were set to be raised. This is why Daniel said it the way he did (actually the angel said it) that many of those who have died will be raised - some to life and some to condemnation. This is speaking of Daniels people only because this is what the whole prophecy was about. Daniels People!
But after the cross these people no longer died and went to Hades but went to be immediately with the Lord. This is what is said exactly. How we miss that probably depends on your personal view of the resurrection and who it really involves.
It boils down to this - if you were unfortunate enough to have died during the Old Covenant days but were not one of the children of Israel then at your death you returned to the dust and your spirit remained dead (as in that all are dead in Adam).
But if you were of the children of Israel during that same period of time then when you died you went to Hades to await the resurrection. You would be either like the rich man or like Lazarus. You would know your fate but since you were one of the people of Daniel you would be a part of the resurrection - who in fact are the many Daniel spoke of. The resurrection promise would be fulfilled by God for the people of Daniel but some to destruction and others to eternal life. This is what Daniel teaches and this is what the Apostle Paul affirms when he speaks of some who sleep.
Likewise, Jesus affirms this also in accepting that the timing of the resurrection must come at the same time as the Abomination of Desolation. Thse two events are completely tied together. One part of the prophecy cannot be accepted without the other. Partial-preterist insist on separating the two events with a time span of thousands of years not allowed from Daniel.
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
I am curious as to what you think this passage means, specifically in regard to the "labour."
2 Corinthians 5:9 - Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
I think it may be connected to a topic Steve.G brought up in another thread which was the difference between "being saved" and "inheriting the kingdom."
In Rev 7 we see a heavenly scene (IMHO) with the 144K (fully consecrated) and also the "great multitude" and in Rev 7.17 it says about "the great multitude" that the Lamb "will feed them and lead them."
Therefore since they still need to be fead and lead even though they are saved , the consecration process or perfecting process may continue in heaven.
This would tie in to something Allyn brought up about Rev 22 which was about "the healing of the nations" even after Christ returned. May not be about sin, it may be about consecration.
2 Corinthians 5:9 - Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
I think it may be connected to a topic Steve.G brought up in another thread which was the difference between "being saved" and "inheriting the kingdom."
In Rev 7 we see a heavenly scene (IMHO) with the 144K (fully consecrated) and also the "great multitude" and in Rev 7.17 it says about "the great multitude" that the Lamb "will feed them and lead them."
Therefore since they still need to be fead and lead even though they are saved , the consecration process or perfecting process may continue in heaven.
This would tie in to something Allyn brought up about Rev 22 which was about "the healing of the nations" even after Christ returned. May not be about sin, it may be about consecration.
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
Doesn't it seem reasonable to believe that the 144,000 who were sealed refer to the sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise prior to the parousia coming? And why would these be "fully consecrated" yet others in that realm (if heaven) are not? To me, the 144,000 are representative of the Jews who were saved during the transition time (12 X 12 X 1000). I am sure you recognized the connection between Rev 7:17's "and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes" with Isaiah 25:8's "the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces" which occurs in the day of salvation. And then there is that "acceptable" issue. Are there those in heaven who will not be accepted, in any way, shape, or form? The healing of the nations is more apt to be concerned with those who are not within the new heaven and earth - in other words, those who are not saved. This is not speaking of the realm of heaven. This is speaking of our relationship in Christ. God dwells with us now.steve7150 wrote:I am curious as to what you think this passage means, specifically in regard to the "labour."
2 Corinthians 5:9 - Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
I think it may be connected to a topic Steve.G brought up in another thread which was the difference between "being saved" and "inheriting the kingdom."
In Rev 7 we see a heavenly scene (IMHO) with the 144K (fully consecrated) and also the "great multitude" and in Rev 7.17 it says about "the great multitude" that the Lamb "will feed them and lead them."
Therefore since they still need to be fead and lead even though they are saved , the consecration process or perfecting process may continue in heaven.
This would tie in to something Allyn brought up about Rev 22 which was about "the healing of the nations" even after Christ returned. May not be about sin, it may be about consecration.
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
And then there is that "acceptable" issue. Are there those in heaven who will not be accepted, in any way, shape, or form?
Other versions say "pleasing" and certainly when believers enter the promised land they are at different levels of consecration and there are different rewards for believers. So although we are credited with Christ's righteousnessto to enter heaven, i think believers even in heaven can continue to grow in consecration.
Other versions say "pleasing" and certainly when believers enter the promised land they are at different levels of consecration and there are different rewards for believers. So although we are credited with Christ's righteousnessto to enter heaven, i think believers even in heaven can continue to grow in consecration.
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
Okay, "pleasing" then. Is there any in heaven who would not be pleasing to God?steve7150 wrote: And then there is that "acceptable" issue. Are there those in heaven who will not be accepted, in any way, shape, or form?
Other versions say "pleasing" and certainly when believers enter the promised land they are at different levels of consecration and there are different rewards for believers. So although we are credited with Christ's righteousnessto to enter heaven, i think believers even in heaven can continue to grow in consecration.
And when a believer enters the "promised land" what do you mean by promised land? Are you speaking of conversion or heaven as you know it? In the OT type, the believers were not entering heaven (as you well know). Upon conversion a believer enters into a "promised land" also, but it is not heaven that he enters at that time. And all believers who are converted are equal in consecration at that specific moment. "Accepted by Him" or "pleasing to Him" is in reference to what God thinks, not in reference to what we do, which is your use of consecration.
And where does it say there are different rewards for believers? Our reward is eternal life. There are no different classifications. I realize it is commonly taught that certain believers will have more (?) than other believers, but that just isn't consistent with Scripture. What more is there than Christ?
Re: Full-Preterism and it's consequences
Okay, "pleasing" then. Is there any in heaven who would not be pleasing to God?
And when a believer enters the "promised land" what do you mean by promised land?
I thought it was obvious i meant heaven and i do think righteousness in Christ is one thing and consecration is a different thing. In 2 Cor Paul does say believers will be judged therefore if we are judged for something other then salvation i deduce that God has different levels of being pleased with us based on our fruit.
And when a believer enters the "promised land" what do you mean by promised land?
I thought it was obvious i meant heaven and i do think righteousness in Christ is one thing and consecration is a different thing. In 2 Cor Paul does say believers will be judged therefore if we are judged for something other then salvation i deduce that God has different levels of being pleased with us based on our fruit.