Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
Jill wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I have no idea what you are talking about.If Jesus was raised by God among the first fruits of those which slept, there would have been no one raised before the time of Moses, or the flood spoken of by Noah. Those "which slept" to council man? And if by Angels only, than no man need be raised by God save Jesus Christ only. For what purpose. just curious...
Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
SamIam wrote:
By your logic, why should I feel compelled that any apply to me? May I pick and choose? Why would a truth spoke to the disciples not be a truth for us today? Did Jesus not know that His church would continue to expand? Why can we not accept that the HS can be our Counselor (or Comforter) even though we weren't physically sitting there when Jesus spoke the words? After all, I wasn't sitting on the side of the hill to hear the sermon on the mount, either.
TK
All the red letters in my NT were directed to disciples or other persons living a long long time ago.Be careful to remember that not every conversation in the Bible is directed toward us, living in the United States in 2010. Jesus was telling the 11 Apostles that THEY would benefit from him going away. The Holy Spirit as a Counselor was promised to THEM. I read this as Jesus promise that the Apostles would recieve additional revelation after Jesus departed.
By your logic, why should I feel compelled that any apply to me? May I pick and choose? Why would a truth spoke to the disciples not be a truth for us today? Did Jesus not know that His church would continue to expand? Why can we not accept that the HS can be our Counselor (or Comforter) even though we weren't physically sitting there when Jesus spoke the words? After all, I wasn't sitting on the side of the hill to hear the sermon on the mount, either.
TK
Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
TK wrote,
I consider the New Testament record to be the final revelation from God, given through the Apostles and Prophets by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, why would you think that everything applies to you? Are you an Apostle?why should I feel compelled that any apply to me?
Because Jesus selected 12 disciples and designated them as Apostles. They were his designated ambassadors and were given promises that were not not given to all of the disciples. I read in Acts that miracles were performed by the hands of the Apostles. The disciples devoted themselves to the teaching of the Apostles. Some things were only true of the Apostles.Why would a truth spoke to the disciples not be a truth for us today?
Yes he did. And he gave the church the Apostles to lead it. We still have their teaching.Did Jesus not know that His church would continue to expand?
The "Counselor" that Jesus promised the Apostles was specifically given to them "to guide them into all truth." Are you claiming that the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth? Are your words equal to those of the Apostles?Why can we not accept that the HS can be our Counselor (or Comforter) even though we weren't physically sitting there when Jesus spoke the words?
But you have the inspired testimony of an Apostle who was there. You also have Luke, who I count as a prophet, with even more teaching. Are you expecting the Holy Spirit to reveal the words from the Sermon on the Mount to you?After all, I wasn't sitting on the side of the hill to hear the sermon on the mount, either.
I consider the New Testament record to be the final revelation from God, given through the Apostles and Prophets by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
SamIam wrote:
You wrote. in regard to my comment about the sermon on the mount:
TK
I guess I don't quite get what you mean here. Are you saying that the HS never "speaks" to Christians any more? or gives them "words of knowledge" and the like? if that is what you are saying, then we are millions of miles apart in our theology, but that is okay with me.I consider the New Testament record to be the final revelation from God, given through the Apostles and Prophets by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
You wrote. in regard to my comment about the sermon on the mount:
Similar to your complaint with Jill- i have no idea what you mean. I believe the words spoken by Jesus, though directed to 1st century persons, apply to me 100%. I don't need the HS to reveal what is plainly spoken by the Lord. Are you saying Mt 5-7 doesn't apply to us today?But you have the inspired testimony of an Apostle who was there. You also have Luke, who I count as a prophet, with even more teaching. Are you expecting the Holy Spirit to reveal the words from the Sermon on the Mount to you?
TK
Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
TK,
I wrote:
You most certainly do need the Holy Spirit to reveal what was spoken by Jesus. There would be no record of those words had the Holy Spirit not inspired the Gospel writers to record them. The Holy Spirit revealed those words to you through the inspiration of those writers.
How the Sermon on the Mount applies to us is a more complicated question. While much of it is in the form of moral instruction, its overall teaching shows me how I will always be unable to stand before a Holy God based on my own morality. The Sermon on the Mount drives me to the cross. I need a Savior, not moral improvement.
I wrote:
You replied:I consider the New Testament record to be the final revelation from God, given through the Apostles and Prophets by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit is talking to you today, then the New Teststament is not the final revelation. I hope you will excuse me if I don't feel obligated by what you claim the Holy Spirit says to you. And if it really is the Holy Spirit of God revealing something to you, am I safe to ignore it?I guess I don't quite get what you mean here. Are you saying that the HS never "speaks" to Christians any more? or gives them "words of knowledge" and the like? if that is what you are saying, then we are millions of miles apart in our theology, but that is okay with me.
This is where we differ. I believe the words spoken by Jesus directly to his chosen Apostles apply to them 100%. The degree that they apply to me must be based on more general principles. I do not feel it is appropriate to claim for myself a promise that Jesus gave to his Apostles.I believe the words spoken by Jesus, though directed to 1st century persons, apply to me 100%. I don't need the HS to reveal what is plainly spoken by the Lord. Are you saying Mt 5-7 doesn't apply to us today?
You most certainly do need the Holy Spirit to reveal what was spoken by Jesus. There would be no record of those words had the Holy Spirit not inspired the Gospel writers to record them. The Holy Spirit revealed those words to you through the inspiration of those writers.
How the Sermon on the Mount applies to us is a more complicated question. While much of it is in the form of moral instruction, its overall teaching shows me how I will always be unable to stand before a Holy God based on my own morality. The Sermon on the Mount drives me to the cross. I need a Savior, not moral improvement.
My point is, the Holy Spirit as Counselor to the Apostles is acting to reveal all truth to the Apostles. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is promised to me as a Counselor in that sense.Why can we not accept that the HS can be our Counselor.
Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (John 16:12-15 ESV)
Sam has a very good point. Do those who claim this as a promise to each of us claim that he has declared "the things that are to come" to each of us? And if so, did the knowledge of future things come to us by reading the scriptures? And if it did, then isn't it fair to say that the "guide you into all truth" comes in the same way, by reading the scriptures? But then there is no guarantee that we will reach the same conclusions, which 2000 years of church history should make obvious. If this promise is to each of us, then it hasn't worked out very well.
IMO it is best to see this promise as a personal one to the Apostles, especially considering the similar statement Jesus made shortly before, where it is obvious He was not making a promise to any but to those to whom He spoke:
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)
It seems to me that when we claim Jesus' promise to "guide you into all truth" we greatly diminish confidence in the scriptures. There is nothing in the text that would indicate that it applies in one degree to those to whom He spoke and in a lesser sense to those who would come after (us). And we certainly have not been guided into all truth; we can not agree on the most basic doctrines. So how do we have any confidence the apostles were either? Only, it seems to me, by recognizing this promise was applicable to the Apostles, and them alone.
Sam has a very good point. Do those who claim this as a promise to each of us claim that he has declared "the things that are to come" to each of us? And if so, did the knowledge of future things come to us by reading the scriptures? And if it did, then isn't it fair to say that the "guide you into all truth" comes in the same way, by reading the scriptures? But then there is no guarantee that we will reach the same conclusions, which 2000 years of church history should make obvious. If this promise is to each of us, then it hasn't worked out very well.
IMO it is best to see this promise as a personal one to the Apostles, especially considering the similar statement Jesus made shortly before, where it is obvious He was not making a promise to any but to those to whom He spoke:
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)
It seems to me that when we claim Jesus' promise to "guide you into all truth" we greatly diminish confidence in the scriptures. There is nothing in the text that would indicate that it applies in one degree to those to whom He spoke and in a lesser sense to those who would come after (us). And we certainly have not been guided into all truth; we can not agree on the most basic doctrines. So how do we have any confidence the apostles were either? Only, it seems to me, by recognizing this promise was applicable to the Apostles, and them alone.
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RICHinCHRIST
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
I agree mostly with Homer and SamIam.
I don't think these passages can be blanket promises for all of us, although practical truths can be drawn from the words of Jesus in this passage that refer to the current Christian experience which can be confirmed by the rest of the New Testament.
But before I talk about that... here are some verses to consider that these promises refer primarily to the apostles:
I wasn't in that upper room. He's specifically addressing the disciples who were currently with Him.
When I received the Holy Spirit, Jesus hadn't told me anything yet... (I was baptized in the Spirit at conversion, though... but even if I wasn't, I think you get my point..)
Jesus only chose the apostles in this way. Yes, they had to yield their lives to His, but He was the one who initially offered them the opportunity... and they were appointed. Calvinists use this verse sometimes, and I think it makes the most sense in the context in referring to only the apostles.
We can see here that Jesus is speaking in plain language and in a timeframe that the apostles could understand. He's referring to the Jews who had rejected Him despite His teachings, rebukes, and miracles. We can see this clearly from verse 25 as well.. their law. Who's law? The Jews who rejected Him.
Only the apostles were with Jesus in the beginning.
I've never even stepped in a synagogue. (Maybe one day!)
This verse brings me much peace. The Spirit cannot speak on His own authority. Well, what does that mean? I'm not sure.. but I know that some of my beliefs are probably my own man-made ideas (hopefully not many significant ones!). In other words, many believers believe and speak what they believe on their own authority. They might think the authority of the Holy Spirit is supporting them, but really they're just speaking on their own authority. The Spirit cannot be currently leading every believer into all truth or we would all have identical doctrinal beliefs. This brings me peace because I believe God will consider that fact when He judges us (I still strive for the truth even if I don't happen to see it perfectly!).
If this refers to all believers, then we are really not hearing the Spirit.
Another verse describing the specifics of the apostles' significance in this passage.
Then Jesus' high priestly prayer is referring mostly to the apostles as well (John 17:1-19)
but then:
Now we come into the picture.
The rest of Jesus' prayer is what I think we can bank on.
This is gradually being fulfilled. [Oh no! Another verse that screams postmillenialism to me! This would be a strong one considering it's Jesus' prayer! Jesus always prayed according to the will of His Father... well, except in the Garden. anyway, I'm just rambling now... maybe I'll start a different thread]
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that these promises are specifically addressed to the apostles. However, we can springboard a lot of application to our current circumstances in Christendom on the promises of the rest of Scripture. For instance, The Spirit indwells believers today, but in a different way than the apostles. The apostles received in order for their apostleship, but today we receive that we might be sealed for redemption (Eph. 1:13-14) and to overcome sin and death (Rom. 8:2-4). We can also expect many tribulations before we enter the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22); this is similar to what the apostles were promised in the Upper Room. We can trust that God will grow the Church up into it's full stature (Eph. 4:13) as we endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3) and exercise our respective gifts by the same Spirit (Eph. 4:7, 11-12). In that way I think it has benefited us for Christ to go away. Just because the upper room discourse mostly applies to the apostles, it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit can't speak to us at all anymore! I believe the Spirit speaks to me on a daily basis... but I need to remember one thing: It's subjective. Sometimes I heard right, sometimes I heard wrong. But I can't mess up hearing correctly if something is plain and simple in the Scriptures; I can bank on my Bible agreeing with the Spirit's leading.
I don't think these passages can be blanket promises for all of us, although practical truths can be drawn from the words of Jesus in this passage that refer to the current Christian experience which can be confirmed by the rest of the New Testament.
But before I talk about that... here are some verses to consider that these promises refer primarily to the apostles:
I wasn't in that upper room. He's specifically addressing the disciples who were currently with Him.
When I received the Holy Spirit, Jesus hadn't told me anything yet... (I was baptized in the Spirit at conversion, though... but even if I wasn't, I think you get my point..)
Jesus only chose the apostles in this way. Yes, they had to yield their lives to His, but He was the one who initially offered them the opportunity... and they were appointed. Calvinists use this verse sometimes, and I think it makes the most sense in the context in referring to only the apostles.
We can see here that Jesus is speaking in plain language and in a timeframe that the apostles could understand. He's referring to the Jews who had rejected Him despite His teachings, rebukes, and miracles. We can see this clearly from verse 25 as well.. their law. Who's law? The Jews who rejected Him.
Only the apostles were with Jesus in the beginning.
I've never even stepped in a synagogue. (Maybe one day!)
This verse brings me much peace. The Spirit cannot speak on His own authority. Well, what does that mean? I'm not sure.. but I know that some of my beliefs are probably my own man-made ideas (hopefully not many significant ones!). In other words, many believers believe and speak what they believe on their own authority. They might think the authority of the Holy Spirit is supporting them, but really they're just speaking on their own authority. The Spirit cannot be currently leading every believer into all truth or we would all have identical doctrinal beliefs. This brings me peace because I believe God will consider that fact when He judges us (I still strive for the truth even if I don't happen to see it perfectly!).
If this refers to all believers, then we are really not hearing the Spirit.
Another verse describing the specifics of the apostles' significance in this passage.
Then Jesus' high priestly prayer is referring mostly to the apostles as well (John 17:1-19)
but then:
Now we come into the picture.
The rest of Jesus' prayer is what I think we can bank on.
This is gradually being fulfilled. [Oh no! Another verse that screams postmillenialism to me! This would be a strong one considering it's Jesus' prayer! Jesus always prayed according to the will of His Father... well, except in the Garden. anyway, I'm just rambling now... maybe I'll start a different thread]
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that these promises are specifically addressed to the apostles. However, we can springboard a lot of application to our current circumstances in Christendom on the promises of the rest of Scripture. For instance, The Spirit indwells believers today, but in a different way than the apostles. The apostles received in order for their apostleship, but today we receive that we might be sealed for redemption (Eph. 1:13-14) and to overcome sin and death (Rom. 8:2-4). We can also expect many tribulations before we enter the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22); this is similar to what the apostles were promised in the Upper Room. We can trust that God will grow the Church up into it's full stature (Eph. 4:13) as we endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3) and exercise our respective gifts by the same Spirit (Eph. 4:7, 11-12). In that way I think it has benefited us for Christ to go away. Just because the upper room discourse mostly applies to the apostles, it doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit can't speak to us at all anymore! I believe the Spirit speaks to me on a daily basis... but I need to remember one thing: It's subjective. Sometimes I heard right, sometimes I heard wrong. But I can't mess up hearing correctly if something is plain and simple in the Scriptures; I can bank on my Bible agreeing with the Spirit's leading.
Last edited by RICHinCHRIST on Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RICHinCHRIST
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?
Hmm.. what about this? Jesus has received all authority in heaven and earth from His Father (Matt. 28:18). Maybe that's what has profited us. The ruler of this world has been cast out (John 12:31) and has been rendered powerless (Col. 2:15). Therefore, in addition to the sending of the Holy Spirit to empower us to become and live godly, we also have the encouragement of knowing that Jesus' overarching authority gives us ability to more fully execute His will on earth. That wouldn't be possible unless Jesus went away. He needs to be reigning over heaven and earth in order to have that authority which he delegates to whom He chooses. There was definitely an emphasis of that delegation specifically to the apostles, but I trust there are amazing things happening simultaneously all throughout the body of Christ on a daily basis. Jesus is a great King and He can influence His kingdom the way He chooses now that He has the complete authority to do so!
Jesus can now reign from heaven and the Holy Spirit can reign in us. In some mysterious way, that wasn't capable of happening unless Jesus went away. Could it be that Jesus wasn't solely referring to His future location but rather the means by which the Spirit would come? Maybe Jesus wasn't referring to literally leaving earth and going to heaven but rather his departure (death) from his earthly life in becoming the propitiation for our sins. Therefore, Jesus' "going away" could have been referring to Him literally suffering the wrath of God on the cross so we could become Spirit-filled. The apostles seemed to receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them (John 20:22). Jesus couldn't do that until after the cross and resurrection was complete. Remember, this was pre-ascension. The gospel of John seems to give us a nugget of truth that the apostles were able to receive the Holy Spirit before the ascension. However, it would seem that the Upper Room Discourse teaching on the Holy Spirit seems to largely be referring to the apostles' future experience after Pentecost.
Jesus can now reign from heaven and the Holy Spirit can reign in us. In some mysterious way, that wasn't capable of happening unless Jesus went away. Could it be that Jesus wasn't solely referring to His future location but rather the means by which the Spirit would come? Maybe Jesus wasn't referring to literally leaving earth and going to heaven but rather his departure (death) from his earthly life in becoming the propitiation for our sins. Therefore, Jesus' "going away" could have been referring to Him literally suffering the wrath of God on the cross so we could become Spirit-filled. The apostles seemed to receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them (John 20:22). Jesus couldn't do that until after the cross and resurrection was complete. Remember, this was pre-ascension. The gospel of John seems to give us a nugget of truth that the apostles were able to receive the Holy Spirit before the ascension. However, it would seem that the Upper Room Discourse teaching on the Holy Spirit seems to largely be referring to the apostles' future experience after Pentecost.