Corporate or Individually Imputed Righteousness?(2 Cor 5:21)

[steve7150]

. This will inevitably lead to a life of overcoming sin and eternal life, as long as we abide. We don't have to atone for our own sins when we don't have an imputed righteousness, we just have to remain IN HIM who has the righteousness, and that righteousness will not solely be a state of pardon but of a practical execution of that righteousness in our daily lives as we are transformed into that same image.-Rich





OK but by what method do we remain in him and grow in him. Is it that he is an inspiring example, is it through the empowering of the Holy Spirit, Is it enough to do right even if one has never heard of him?
The empowering of the Spirit sounds good yet most Christians either fall away or don't mature. If imputed righteousness is not true and we have to increase in righteousness ourselves do we ever really know if we are saved?
If i believed in eternal hell (which i don't) the thought of working out my salvation with fear and trembling would scare me into righteousness, yet is that how God wants people to know him?
You said if we remain in him we are in a state of pardon, that sounds like imputed righteousness , so again that sounds like works are the fruit of salvation.

[steve7150]

God's-Righteousness-Faithfulness-Declarers"

Makes exegetical sense to me.
What NTW said.
(Pretty much like what Paidion said)....






I know Paidion can speak for himself but i think he said salvation is a process whereas NTW i think is saying Paul means salvation is found in faithfulness , but he did'nt say it was a process, just a matter of remaining in Christ. I think NTW might say sanctification or maturity is a process.

[RICHinCHRIST]

OK but by what method do we remain in him and grow in him. Is it that he is an inspiring example, is it through the empowering of the Holy Spirit, Is it enough to do right even if one has never heard of him?

Faith is how we access grace (Rom 5:2). I think it's about understanding that when we yield to the power of the Holy Spirit, it is God's Spirit that works in us to will and to do for His good pleasure (Phil 2:13). Therefore, it's not so much that we are the one's executing God's righteousness for Him, but rather that God is the One executing His righteousness through us. This happens by abiding in faith, by placing our will into God's will.

The question as to those who have never heard... that can be a whole other thread. Perhaps the answer is in that Christ is the light of every man coming into the world, and that people either love the light and respond accordingly or hate the light and respond accordingly. I suppose that only God knows how the will, faith, and the actual conduct of those considered in this category will be judged.

The empowering of the Spirit sounds good yet most Christians either fall away or don't mature. If imputed righteousness is not true and we have to increase in righteousness ourselves do we ever really know if we are saved?

I see what you're saying, but I don't think that we need to have an imputed righteousness for us to partake of the divine nature. It's by partaking of the divine nature (being born of, walking in, and being led by the Holy Spirit) that we are able to practically see Christ working through us (and also by which, the Spirit of God assures us we are God's child (Rom 8:16). But my proposition in the first post was more of a question about how we "become" the righteousness of God. It's a corporate communion (if, of course, Paul is speaking of the universal body of Christ in that verse) that I'm thinking of. We, as the body of Christ, are filled with all the gifts, fruits, and subsequent spiritual blessings in Christ. These are conditional upon faith. And we know that our faith must prove itself by the way we live. It is a difficult question as to how our faith and our works co-exist and how interdependent they are. Our free will is clearly part of that conglomerate equation.. and I'm not sure how it all works out.

If i believed in eternal hell (which i don't) the thought of working out my salvation with fear and trembling would scare me into righteousness, yet is that how God wants people to know him?

Even if the eternal torment view were true, I don't think God wants us to have a tormenting fear to be the driving force of our attempted daily choices and conduct.


John does mention, however, that our fearlessness is due to our likeness to Christ (because as He is, so are we in this world). We need not fear the day of judgment when we walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:6). This is a high standard! But the apostles felt it necessary to preach that high standard. It moves me to want to trust God that I might attain to it by His grace! (1 Cor 15:10)

Peter gave us a little more insight as well:


Therefore, there is a place for fear, and there is a place for contentment in the love of God. I'm learning that it is a balance between those two heart conditions.

You said if we remain in him we are in a state of pardon, that sounds like imputed righteousness , so again that sounds like works are the fruit of salvation.

I believe works are the fruit of God's Spirit working in and through us to the good pleasure of His will. That state of pardon is a conditional one (in my opinion), since it is IN Christ that we partake of the good fruits and empowering work of the Spirit. It is by the Spirit that we fulfill the righteous requirements of the law in the New Covenant (Rom 8:4). If you re-read NT Wright's comments earlier on, you'll see that he makes a point to mention that there is nothing lost in seeing these verses in a different way. We have more than just the righteousness of God in Christ, but we have wisdom, sanctification, redemption (1 Cor 1:30), and all treasures of knowledge (Col 2:3).

[Paidion]

However, we're not saved by works, we're saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).

I was wondering, Rich, how you understand the word "saved". What are we saved from?
Paul's statement in Eph 2:8-9 is very important all right. The sentence which follows it, and is connected to it by that little word "for" seems enlightening to an understanding of the sentence to which you referred. What do you think?

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

However, we know that Christ didn't literally BECOME sin, but rather he endured the result of sin, the insults and mockery of those who hated him, and the excruciating pain of death on the cross. This is the sense that Christ was "made" sin.

....with which I am in agreement 100%! This idea I have long contended for. Christ went to the cross as an unblemished lamb, as was required.

As for faith and works, it is helpful to know that the Greek word pistis can be translated as "faith" or as "faithfulness".

There is an interesting article on Faith/Faithfulness in the book "Handbook of Biblical Social Values", ed. Pilch and Molina, where the stress is on loyalty. As the authors point out, we in the west with our focus on individualism put a different meaning on words than those of the East, particularly those of the time of Christ and the Apostles.

Here is a short quote from the article:

In sum, "faith" primarily means personal loyaly, personal commitment to another person, fidelity and the solidarity that comes from such faithfulness. Secondarily, the word can mean credence as in phrases such as: to give credence, or to find believable.

I think most in the western church are stuck in the secondary meaning.

There are a number of books written in recent years that focus on "social archeology" where the authors are digging up not pots and pans, but the way that people in biblical times (and to a great extent today) thought and valued things, which is considerably different than we in the west.

[steve7150]

As for faith and works, it is helpful to know that the Greek word pistis can be translated as "faith" or as "faithfulness".








Good post Homer!

[RICHinCHRIST]

I was wondering, Rich, how you understand the word "saved". What are we saved from?
Paul's statement in Eph 2:8-9 is very important all right. The sentence which follows it, and is connected to it by that little word "for" seems enlightening to an understanding of the sentence to which you referred. What do you think?

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I'm not too familiar with the use of the greek behind the different words translated "saved" (I know there is at least sozo and soteria.. as of any others I'm unaware of them currently). After glancing through some of the uses of those words, it seems that there are different connotations of being "saved" in the New Testament. There is a quote that is paraphrased in the lexicon by A.W Pink: "Fourfold salvation: saved from the penalty, power, presence and most importantly, the pleasure of sin." I think there are examples of all of those uses (and oftentimes they intertwine or are assumed) in the New Testament. I suppose you will argue that Ephesians 2:8-10 is describing a salvation from the present power of sin. I agree, but I see the verse before Eph. 2:8-9 as giving a bit of a glance into the word "saved" as well:



This grace that saves us will be exemplified even more in the ages to come. Therefore, I have always tended to see these verses as referring to a future salvation after death. That salvation is from the wrath of God, if I'm understanding Rom 5:9-10 correctly. However, after reading through the Ephesians passage some more.. it seems that the other use of the word saved (present deliverance) could also substitute quite well. I think I see both!

[Paidion]

Thanks, Rich. I can see that you are really studying these things.

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (Rom 5:9,10)

That salvation is from the wrath of God, if I'm understanding Rom 5:9-10 correctly. However, after reading through the Ephesians passage some more.. it seems that the other use of the word saved (present deliverance) could also substitute quite well. I think I see both!

Salvation is from the wrath of God? I recall reading that some child in Sunday School once said, "Oh, now I get it! Jesus died to save us from God!"

Since the Son of God is another divine individual exactly like his Father, (exact expression of His essence --- (Hebrews 1:3), it seems odd to think of Jesus saving us from God's wrath. If God is ready to condemn us, why wouldn't Jesus be of the same mind set? He is identical to the Father.

Those who do think He died to save us from the wrath of God, normally say that we are saved by His death. But Rom 5:10 says that we are saved by His life. My thought is that we are being saved from sin by Jesus life which He lives within us. He Himself said that the Father and He would make their dwelling with the disciples.

I have failed to find any passage which unequivocally states that we are saved from the wrath of God, except Romans 5:9. However, I suggest that being saved from that wrath (from correction in Gehenna) is a side benefit; salvation from sin is the main benefit. George MacDonald wrote that it is sin in our lives we should fear, and not hell. God does His best for every individual. "If hell be needed to correct him, let the worm writhe, and the fire blaze" (paraphrase of MacDonald by memory).

If we are walking (by the enabling grace of God) the narrow road that leads to life, and do not swerve off it, we can be assured of God's forgiveness. However, I don't think Christ's death was necessary to secure that forgiveness.

[Paidion]

I have just noticed that, in Romans 5:9, God didn't write that we will be saved from "the wrath of God", but rather that we will be saved from "wrath". Translators have added "of God". You may ask, "From whose wrath, other than God's, could we be saved?" Well, the wording seems to allow for the possibility of being saved from another's wrath. Man's wrath possibly? Satan's? I don't know.

[RICHinCHRIST]

I have just noticed that, in Romans 5:9, God didn't write that we will be saved from "the wrath of God", but rather that we will be saved from "wrath". Translators have added "of God". You may ask, "From whose wrath, other than God's, could we be saved?" Well, the wording seems to allow for the possibility of being saved from another's wrath. Man's wrath possibly? Satan's? I don't know.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It says in the NKJV that we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

However, the other uses of the word "wrath" before the use of it in Rom 5:9 seem to indicate it is God's wrath being spoken of. For instance, see:


Although this is spoken of in the present tense , it is still God's wrath.

Wrath can be stored up for the day when God will judge, which is described as a day of wrath.

Wrath is one of the guarantees to those who obey unrighteousness (which we did before we were saved by Christ's life)

God is spoken of as inflicting wrath (even though this is a rhetorical question)

The law, which God gave, brings wrath.