Homer wrote; “I highly recommend reading Norman Geisler's book on Christian ethics where he expalins the hierarchical position”
I too have a few of Geislers books, among hundreds of other books on my shelf, I particularly like ‘Chosen but free’, but if I can’t find the scripture in the bible, that kind of trumps the other authors. I am curious as to why Paidion would accept this book by Geisler when Geisler holds to Forever hell, no Second chance, Christ’s fulfilling the Law, the Trinity, Sanctification of the ‘Saved’ person, etc.
It is not necessary to try and justify 'how Jesus alleged' breaking the Sabbath, because He was not breaking the Sabbath.
You don’t need hypothetical situations where it is ok to break the Law, if you are ‘doing’ good. This what the Jews did themselves when they made up situations where it was okay to break ‘their interpretation’ of their 'own law' where if they had simply stuck to what God wrote about, that is, not doing anything 'laborious'. Instead they became overtly judgemental and hypocritical and therefore needed all their hypothetical’s and laws, such as ‘you could move a wheat stack if you placed a spoon on it, in order to move the spoon’
Doing 'Gods work' was commanded on the Sabbath for the Priests, the work to be performed is known as the Holy Convocation. So the Priests were not breaking the Law (!?)
The Priests also made and baked the cakes on the Sabbath as was ‘commanded’, you are not breaking a command by keeping the command. As it was commanded that the people ‘celebrate’ the Shabbat, they were to rejoice in the Sabbath.
"On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.8 'But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the LORD. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work"
(Lev 23:7-8)
"He shall keep the lamps in order on the pure gold lampstand before the LORD continually.5 "Then you shall take fine flour and bake twelve cakes with it; two-tenths of an ephah shall be in each cake.
(Lev 24:4-5)
Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
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jriccitelli
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jriccitelli
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Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
look2jesus wrote; “These statements lead me to believe that you are equating Sabbath breaking with doing something sinful and in trying to defend Jesus' behavior, you are denying that He broke the Sabbath.
Sabbath breaking was punishable by death, so it is clearly a sin. So, if Jesus is above the Law why do we not find Him breaking any other Law?
look2jesus wrote; "Furthermore, you seem to deny that the priests themselves, during their ministrations on the Sabbath, were breaking the Sabbath. I would just want to point out that not all Sabbath breaking was sin. This was Jesus' point. Though the priests habitually broke the Sabbath (re: temple ministrations, circumcisions performed, etc.) they were "guiltless"; not because they weren't breaking the Sabbath, but because of other overriding principles”
Overriding principle? Doing Gods work was ‘commanded’ on the Sabbath for the Priests, the work to be performed was known as the Holy Convocation. So the Priests were not breaking the Law (!?)
'Convocation' is a rehearsal, an assembly, a calling, it could be said; a calling to Gods service, a call to serve God.
I am not making up 'excuses' as to how Jesus could break the Law, and yet not break the Law.
I am asking the question; How did Jesus break the Law? By healing?
No, yet that is the Pharisees judgment based on their own 'misjudgment'. Where in the Law is miracuolous healing a labor?
Paulespino wrote; “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”19 so that they could accuse him. 12:11 He said to them, “Would not any one of you, if he had one sheep that fell into a pit on the Sabbath, take hold of it and lift it out? 12:12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
Absolutely. It is hard to get to what the original Jewish law was for helping an animal on the Sabbath since most Mishna thought was oral tradition, but good sources seem to agree that there was a permission given for helping an animal out of a pit, as also it was likely allowable to ‘help any injured animal’ also on the Sabbath. In fact many provisions were made for animals in Jewish law, so it is very probable that Jesus was simply pointing out the inconsistency with Jewish laws, that although they would allow an animal help, even making a point of it in their tradition, where yet they deny humans the same goodness, where it was ‘never written’ by Moses that a person could ‘not do good’ on the Sabbath.
“But on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.12 "Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves”
(Exodus 23:11-12)
Although it was a Sabbath year in verse 23:11, I think it should have been understood that the needy and hungry could eat and refresh on the Sabbath day as in verse 12. Jesus and the disciples were walking on the sabbath, they were only eating what they had available, since like Jesus may have been away from home, or had no home.
Sabbath breaking was punishable by death, so it is clearly a sin. So, if Jesus is above the Law why do we not find Him breaking any other Law?
look2jesus wrote; "Furthermore, you seem to deny that the priests themselves, during their ministrations on the Sabbath, were breaking the Sabbath. I would just want to point out that not all Sabbath breaking was sin. This was Jesus' point. Though the priests habitually broke the Sabbath (re: temple ministrations, circumcisions performed, etc.) they were "guiltless"; not because they weren't breaking the Sabbath, but because of other overriding principles”
Overriding principle? Doing Gods work was ‘commanded’ on the Sabbath for the Priests, the work to be performed was known as the Holy Convocation. So the Priests were not breaking the Law (!?)
'Convocation' is a rehearsal, an assembly, a calling, it could be said; a calling to Gods service, a call to serve God.
I am not making up 'excuses' as to how Jesus could break the Law, and yet not break the Law.
I am asking the question; How did Jesus break the Law? By healing?
No, yet that is the Pharisees judgment based on their own 'misjudgment'. Where in the Law is miracuolous healing a labor?
Paulespino wrote; “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”19 so that they could accuse him. 12:11 He said to them, “Would not any one of you, if he had one sheep that fell into a pit on the Sabbath, take hold of it and lift it out? 12:12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.
Absolutely. It is hard to get to what the original Jewish law was for helping an animal on the Sabbath since most Mishna thought was oral tradition, but good sources seem to agree that there was a permission given for helping an animal out of a pit, as also it was likely allowable to ‘help any injured animal’ also on the Sabbath. In fact many provisions were made for animals in Jewish law, so it is very probable that Jesus was simply pointing out the inconsistency with Jewish laws, that although they would allow an animal help, even making a point of it in their tradition, where yet they deny humans the same goodness, where it was ‘never written’ by Moses that a person could ‘not do good’ on the Sabbath.
“But on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove.12 "Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves”
(Exodus 23:11-12)
Although it was a Sabbath year in verse 23:11, I think it should have been understood that the needy and hungry could eat and refresh on the Sabbath day as in verse 12. Jesus and the disciples were walking on the sabbath, they were only eating what they had available, since like Jesus may have been away from home, or had no home.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
Steve 7150 wrote; Jesus said "therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" , which sounds uneventful but actually "doing good" is a kind of working and working is a direct contradiction to the Sabbath command "cease from your works."
But there is no Commandment against doing good, and Jesus verifies this by saying God also is doing good on the Sabbath, God is not breaking the Sabbath because He is God, God is doing good and it is not laborious.
Jesus is pointing out the Jews own pious hypocrisy, and to the Jews making laws of their own as if they were Gods Commandments, and thus they had corrupted Gods intention of the Sabbath.
Look 2 Jesus wrote; “Concerning the commencement of the New Covenant, after reading through Hebrews 8 & 9, I have to conclude that it wasn't until Jesus' death that it truly commenced”
Exactly! All forgiveness within the Law was to be fulfilled in Christ, and so if Christ did not fulfill the Law, neither would any forgiveness be fulfilled. The New Covenant is not unrelated to the First. The New Covenant is a fulfillment of the first. Humans did not fulfill their part of the Covenants, yet God would fulfill His side of the Covenants, with His own blood, and God is the One who made the covenant.
The First is the Foundation of the Second, it is not opposed or indifferent to the First as many Christians believe, but rather the Old Covenant gives us the New Covenant, for within the Old was the New, that is Christ.
“For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. (Hebrews 9:16-18)
7150 wrote; “The main thing is that Jesus said "and i myself am working" so whatever John meant, Jesus didn't observe the Sabbath command of "cease from your works."
This is not Johns own comment and accusation, John is just relating what the Jews perceived. John rarely writes his own thoughts throughout this Gospel but he is relating what others are saying; they said, he said, they were saying, they were grumbling etc. If John, in no other place, anywhere, including his other letters, ‘agrees’ with the Pharisees accusations then why would John be agreeing with the Pharisees here?
7150 wrote; “Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath so IMO he isn't required to keep a ceremonial law so i don't think John literally meant he broke the law since he wasn't subject to it, but again the point is that he was working”
The point is that the Pharisees had made a work out of everything, from lifting a horse hair to wiping your nose.
The Pharisees would have made a law that would have prevented the Priest from working in the Temple on the Sabbath if they could, or had thought of it first, and that is what Jesus is pointing out. Neither is the priest breaking the Sabbath and neither is anyone who does good on the Sabbath, nor was the Sabbath a 'restriction from Celebrating' and 'enjoying' their rest from 'laborious' work. It was the leaven of the Pharisees that made the Law and the Sabbath so burdensome for the worshipper.
If you see the Judge doing something that is against the Law, he is guilty of punishment. Christ came in human form to fulfill the law, not to break it. And Christ kept the Law even the Law of the Sacrifice. He 'foretold' of the 'New Covenant', as did the Prophets, where His Law would be written on our hearts, not to break them but to fulfill them.
Not under the Law or above the Law. And not under the burden of the Law which we could 'not' keep, but under the Law of the Sabbath, ceasing from our works to live for His works, which He does through us to do His will, as a Kingdom of Priests "Here I am to do thy will". The freedom to celebrate and live the Sabbath everyday, not as a burden but as joyful knowing we have entered into His rest; this is our holy Convocation, rehearsal, assembly and vocation.
But there is no Commandment against doing good, and Jesus verifies this by saying God also is doing good on the Sabbath, God is not breaking the Sabbath because He is God, God is doing good and it is not laborious.
Jesus is pointing out the Jews own pious hypocrisy, and to the Jews making laws of their own as if they were Gods Commandments, and thus they had corrupted Gods intention of the Sabbath.
Look 2 Jesus wrote; “Concerning the commencement of the New Covenant, after reading through Hebrews 8 & 9, I have to conclude that it wasn't until Jesus' death that it truly commenced”
Exactly! All forgiveness within the Law was to be fulfilled in Christ, and so if Christ did not fulfill the Law, neither would any forgiveness be fulfilled. The New Covenant is not unrelated to the First. The New Covenant is a fulfillment of the first. Humans did not fulfill their part of the Covenants, yet God would fulfill His side of the Covenants, with His own blood, and God is the One who made the covenant.
The First is the Foundation of the Second, it is not opposed or indifferent to the First as many Christians believe, but rather the Old Covenant gives us the New Covenant, for within the Old was the New, that is Christ.
“For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. (Hebrews 9:16-18)
7150 wrote; “The main thing is that Jesus said "and i myself am working" so whatever John meant, Jesus didn't observe the Sabbath command of "cease from your works."
This is not Johns own comment and accusation, John is just relating what the Jews perceived. John rarely writes his own thoughts throughout this Gospel but he is relating what others are saying; they said, he said, they were saying, they were grumbling etc. If John, in no other place, anywhere, including his other letters, ‘agrees’ with the Pharisees accusations then why would John be agreeing with the Pharisees here?
7150 wrote; “Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath so IMO he isn't required to keep a ceremonial law so i don't think John literally meant he broke the law since he wasn't subject to it, but again the point is that he was working”
The point is that the Pharisees had made a work out of everything, from lifting a horse hair to wiping your nose.
The Pharisees would have made a law that would have prevented the Priest from working in the Temple on the Sabbath if they could, or had thought of it first, and that is what Jesus is pointing out. Neither is the priest breaking the Sabbath and neither is anyone who does good on the Sabbath, nor was the Sabbath a 'restriction from Celebrating' and 'enjoying' their rest from 'laborious' work. It was the leaven of the Pharisees that made the Law and the Sabbath so burdensome for the worshipper.
If you see the Judge doing something that is against the Law, he is guilty of punishment. Christ came in human form to fulfill the law, not to break it. And Christ kept the Law even the Law of the Sacrifice. He 'foretold' of the 'New Covenant', as did the Prophets, where His Law would be written on our hearts, not to break them but to fulfill them.
Not under the Law or above the Law. And not under the burden of the Law which we could 'not' keep, but under the Law of the Sabbath, ceasing from our works to live for His works, which He does through us to do His will, as a Kingdom of Priests "Here I am to do thy will". The freedom to celebrate and live the Sabbath everyday, not as a burden but as joyful knowing we have entered into His rest; this is our holy Convocation, rehearsal, assembly and vocation.
Last edited by jriccitelli on Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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paulespino
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Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
I agree with you JR, I don't believe that Jesus broke the law of Sabbath.
Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
Just curious. Why do we capitalize Sabbath and Law?
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jriccitelli
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Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
I know I tend to over Capitalize, but I capitalize ‘theological subjects’ to try and distinguish them from the common uses of the word. Someone can debate whether theological doctrines are proper nouns or not, and so I find that some writers do and some don’t capitalize them. But for my own sense of clarity I like to capitalize when I am thinking of a term as a formal Doctrine such as Faith and Works, Belief, Love, Sanctification, etc.
I cap. Law to distinguish Gods Law from other laws. Sabbath, like Sunday is a specific day, but I capitalize it in the sense that it is a specific doctrine also.
(My wife wishes I would not 'apostrophize' so much, I think I am being helpful but it is probably just a bad habit)
I cap. Law to distinguish Gods Law from other laws. Sabbath, like Sunday is a specific day, but I capitalize it in the sense that it is a specific doctrine also.
(My wife wishes I would not 'apostrophize' so much, I think I am being helpful but it is probably just a bad habit)
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paulespino
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Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
I think the reason we capitalize it is because "Sabbath Law " is a proper noun or a proper name. Sabbath Law is a name given to a specific law .Cheryl wrote:Just curious. Why do we capitalize Sabbath and Law?
Example:
1) What is the name of the law that commands the Jews to rest on the 7th day of the week?
Answer: Sabbath Law
You can see that when the question was asked what law commands the Jews to rest, the answer given is Sabbath Law which is a proper noun or proper name.
It's like asking what is the name of your car?
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jriccitelli
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Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
Someone pointed out that Jesus purposely healed on the Sabbath.
True, though Jesus probably healed all the time, the gospel writers make a point of it, as Jesus also often did things just to make a point. As when Jesus waited three days before raising Lazarus, and when allowing John to baptize Him, etc.
Jesus wanted to draw attention to what the Jews had overlooked concerning the Sabbath, in that the Sabbath was meant to be for our benefit and well being, even the healing of our tired, and possibly, injured bodies.
It was also a memorial of the time God freed the Israelites from the bondage of work in Egypt (Duet 5:15) so that they could celebrate a feast to the Lord in the wilderness (Exodus 5:1). We keep the Sabbath as a memorial of our freedom from slavery to sin and flesh, just as Israel was freed from Egypt.
How New is the New Covenant?
The New Covenant is not ‘new’ as in ‘completely different’, but new in a sense of renewed, made fresh, a new way to receive what God had promised in the First Covenant (Since we could not do it the other way) Most everything Jesus said and taught came from the Law and the Prophets, the New command that He gave us wasn’t new (Lev 19:18) but Jesus gave us a new understanding of it. As he did most all the Laws.
The saying ‘to hate your enemies' was never something God had commanded.
It was only that the Jews had interpreted Gods wrath and anger towards their enemy’s as a ‘rule’ to keep themselves.
Whatever Gods plans are concerning His enemies is His business, and Jesus is clarifying what ‘our’ role is; to love our enemies. The Jews had forgotten that God also hated them at times (Jer 12:8, Hosea 9:15) and hated their sins.
David’s prayer was simply revealing that he was not condoning the actions of Gods enemies as some later would;
You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them" (Malachi 2:17)
It must be understood that they are still Gods enemies, but our actions should be gracious if possible, as David also showed grace to Saul and spared Saul’s life twice.
Their is no Law to hate anyone, in fact it says to return an enemies donkey to him in Exodus 23:4, this principle is taught again to love our enemies in Proverbs 24:17, and Proverbs 25:21.
If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink" (Prov 25:21)
Did Jesus teach the Law? Jesus taught the Law, the Law that included a sacrifice for sins, Jesus taught the Law that no one could fulfill, yet He kept it and He fulfilled it. He taught the Law as one with authority, as the One who gave the Law.
He taught it as one who could sympathize with our weaknesses;
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)
Did the disciples keep the law?
Jesus taught the Law that caused His disciples to say “Who then can be saved?” (No one could keep the Law, without grace)
"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word” (John 17:6)
They kept whos word? Gods Word. I know the Disciples were not sinless, and they continued to have sin natures till death, never the less they obeyed Gods Word as Jews would, and as they walked as He walked. It was not till after Christ’s death that the Covenant was fulfilled, the Law ended, and the Veil torn. It wasn’t till the Spirit of Christ and His Holy Spirit came that they were able to pursue holiness in the new man. Then they pursued righteousness as being free from the Law but slaves unto Christ once they received the Spirit of truth, so they could understand truth.
When it says in Mark 7:19 that “He declared all foods clean” this certainly must be from the revelation that Peter had later on the rooftop in Acts (Since Mark was likely writing down Peters words) and not necessarily a thought of his at the time Jesus said it, although Jesus was declaring what was true all along and not something different. It wasn't 'the fruit' on the tree of knowledge that defiled Adam and Eve, it was their disobiedence that defiled them. It was disobedience that is defiling not the food, just as offering praise with an evil heart was wrong, God had had enough of their outward works while inside they were still sinning. (Malachi 2:10-14)
True, though Jesus probably healed all the time, the gospel writers make a point of it, as Jesus also often did things just to make a point. As when Jesus waited three days before raising Lazarus, and when allowing John to baptize Him, etc.
Jesus wanted to draw attention to what the Jews had overlooked concerning the Sabbath, in that the Sabbath was meant to be for our benefit and well being, even the healing of our tired, and possibly, injured bodies.
It was also a memorial of the time God freed the Israelites from the bondage of work in Egypt (Duet 5:15) so that they could celebrate a feast to the Lord in the wilderness (Exodus 5:1). We keep the Sabbath as a memorial of our freedom from slavery to sin and flesh, just as Israel was freed from Egypt.
How New is the New Covenant?
The New Covenant is not ‘new’ as in ‘completely different’, but new in a sense of renewed, made fresh, a new way to receive what God had promised in the First Covenant (Since we could not do it the other way) Most everything Jesus said and taught came from the Law and the Prophets, the New command that He gave us wasn’t new (Lev 19:18) but Jesus gave us a new understanding of it. As he did most all the Laws.
The saying ‘to hate your enemies' was never something God had commanded.
It was only that the Jews had interpreted Gods wrath and anger towards their enemy’s as a ‘rule’ to keep themselves.
Whatever Gods plans are concerning His enemies is His business, and Jesus is clarifying what ‘our’ role is; to love our enemies. The Jews had forgotten that God also hated them at times (Jer 12:8, Hosea 9:15) and hated their sins.
David’s prayer was simply revealing that he was not condoning the actions of Gods enemies as some later would;
You have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them" (Malachi 2:17)
It must be understood that they are still Gods enemies, but our actions should be gracious if possible, as David also showed grace to Saul and spared Saul’s life twice.
Their is no Law to hate anyone, in fact it says to return an enemies donkey to him in Exodus 23:4, this principle is taught again to love our enemies in Proverbs 24:17, and Proverbs 25:21.
If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink" (Prov 25:21)
Did Jesus teach the Law? Jesus taught the Law, the Law that included a sacrifice for sins, Jesus taught the Law that no one could fulfill, yet He kept it and He fulfilled it. He taught the Law as one with authority, as the One who gave the Law.
He taught it as one who could sympathize with our weaknesses;
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)
Did the disciples keep the law?
Jesus taught the Law that caused His disciples to say “Who then can be saved?” (No one could keep the Law, without grace)
"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word” (John 17:6)
They kept whos word? Gods Word. I know the Disciples were not sinless, and they continued to have sin natures till death, never the less they obeyed Gods Word as Jews would, and as they walked as He walked. It was not till after Christ’s death that the Covenant was fulfilled, the Law ended, and the Veil torn. It wasn’t till the Spirit of Christ and His Holy Spirit came that they were able to pursue holiness in the new man. Then they pursued righteousness as being free from the Law but slaves unto Christ once they received the Spirit of truth, so they could understand truth.
When it says in Mark 7:19 that “He declared all foods clean” this certainly must be from the revelation that Peter had later on the rooftop in Acts (Since Mark was likely writing down Peters words) and not necessarily a thought of his at the time Jesus said it, although Jesus was declaring what was true all along and not something different. It wasn't 'the fruit' on the tree of knowledge that defiled Adam and Eve, it was their disobiedence that defiled them. It was disobedience that is defiling not the food, just as offering praise with an evil heart was wrong, God had had enough of their outward works while inside they were still sinning. (Malachi 2:10-14)
Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
And I am curious as to why you are curious.jriccitelli wrote:I am curious as to why Paidion would accept this book by Geisler when Geisler holds to Forever hell, no Second chance,...
If a person is wrong in one matter, does it imply that he is wrong in EVERYTHING he writes?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
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jriccitelli
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Re: Did Jesus Observe the Sabbath?
No, Of course not, nobody is right in everything he writes.
Yes, “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all”.
Jesus came as God in the flesh, so if He sinned while in the flesh then Jesus was as guilty as any man.
"If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law’ (James 2:9-10)
I do not think the Father showed partiality unto Jesus in regards to the Law (Thus God would be convicted as a transgressor, James 2:9), even though Jesus is ‘Lord of the Sabbath’ He is also ‘Lord of all The Commandments’ so being Lord does not mean He breaks them. He is the “Lord of not lying’ can He thus lie?
He is the ‘Lord of not committing adultery’ can He thus commit adultery?
We are to be perfect as He is Perfect, what model is God if Jesus breaks the Law?
“He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?... 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. (James 4:11-17)
If Jesus truly is breaking the Mosaic Law, well God can do anything He wants true, but how could He thus judge? If Jesus is Judge and yet is breaking the Law then He is no better than a human Judge, or priest for that matter (Heb 2:8).
"Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." (John 8:46-47)
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. (Matt 5:18-20)
How would a person fulfill the Law? By breaking it?
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:18-20)
What point is there in having even a small letter of the Law if the Law wasn’t going to be kept or fulfilled?
I hope Jesus wasn’t teaching others to annul the Law. Jesus says you must teach and keep the commandments to be called great, and I expect Jesus to be called great in heaven (Heb 3:3). Don’t worry if we are not teaching the Law though, because Jesus is talking to those who are of the Jewish Faith, not Gentiles (He came to the Jew first). The Jews still have the Law, yet believers have a Messiah, and they have the Law written in their heart (All be it though, that faith comes by hearing the message).
"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (John 5:45-47)
Moses will stand in Judgment on those who did not believe His words, or keep the Law.
"Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"36 He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you."38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains. (John 9:35-41)
Jesus accuses the Pharisees of sin and blindness, that would be hard for Jesus to do if they were ‘correct’ in their accusations of Jesus’ breaking the Law (Sabbath).
I believe Christ fulfilled the Law and I have died and my new life has been raised with Christ. I am dead to sin, therefore I cannot let sin reign in my mortal body.
“For I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."… 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me... 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good… For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin... 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good... 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man…25 So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God…” (Romans 7:7-25)
Yes, “Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all”.
Jesus came as God in the flesh, so if He sinned while in the flesh then Jesus was as guilty as any man.
"If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law’ (James 2:9-10)
I do not think the Father showed partiality unto Jesus in regards to the Law (Thus God would be convicted as a transgressor, James 2:9), even though Jesus is ‘Lord of the Sabbath’ He is also ‘Lord of all The Commandments’ so being Lord does not mean He breaks them. He is the “Lord of not lying’ can He thus lie?
He is the ‘Lord of not committing adultery’ can He thus commit adultery?
We are to be perfect as He is Perfect, what model is God if Jesus breaks the Law?
“He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?... 17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. (James 4:11-17)
If Jesus truly is breaking the Mosaic Law, well God can do anything He wants true, but how could He thus judge? If Jesus is Judge and yet is breaking the Law then He is no better than a human Judge, or priest for that matter (Heb 2:8).
"Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." (John 8:46-47)
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. (Matt 5:18-20)
How would a person fulfill the Law? By breaking it?
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:18-20)
What point is there in having even a small letter of the Law if the Law wasn’t going to be kept or fulfilled?
I hope Jesus wasn’t teaching others to annul the Law. Jesus says you must teach and keep the commandments to be called great, and I expect Jesus to be called great in heaven (Heb 3:3). Don’t worry if we are not teaching the Law though, because Jesus is talking to those who are of the Jewish Faith, not Gentiles (He came to the Jew first). The Jews still have the Law, yet believers have a Messiah, and they have the Law written in their heart (All be it though, that faith comes by hearing the message).
"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" (John 5:45-47)
Moses will stand in Judgment on those who did not believe His words, or keep the Law.
"Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"36 He answered, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?"37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you."38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains. (John 9:35-41)
Jesus accuses the Pharisees of sin and blindness, that would be hard for Jesus to do if they were ‘correct’ in their accusations of Jesus’ breaking the Law (Sabbath).
I believe Christ fulfilled the Law and I have died and my new life has been raised with Christ. I am dead to sin, therefore I cannot let sin reign in my mortal body.
“For I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."… 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me... 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good… For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin... 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good... 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man…25 So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God…” (Romans 7:7-25)