According to the hypothesis of the universalist all people will eventually be brought to repentance, most of them after a time of correction after this life; then they will enjoy eternal bliss in the presence of God. If this is true was Jesus ignorant of it? Why would He not mention of this? And how could He say of Judas' betrayal that it would have been better for Judas to have never been born? After all, after Judas gets corrected, according to your view he will spend eternity with God. Is that a worse outcome than to have never existed? Perhaps you can enlighten us on this.
Also would appreciate a response to my other questions.
Alternative Views of Hell
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_STEVE7150
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Well Homer speaking only for me as i've said before i'm not a universalist i only believe that the potential is there. Jesus revealed what his listeners could bear as you know he said to them "I have many other things to reveal to you but now you can not bear it." Also God did'nt reveal everything to his prophets only what he wanted them to know and Jesus revealed what he wanted us to know. However much of what i believe about the lake of fire and after is from Revelation which was in fact revealed by Jesus. As for Judas , perhaps he will spend billions of years in repentence and he may wish he was never born.
Actually there are many verses that allude to universalism but are brushed aside by mainstream Christianity.
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN , specially to those that believe." 1 Tim 4.10-11
"For their is one God and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for ALL TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME." 1 Tim 2.5-6 Since many people never hear about Christ in their lifetime what can this verse about in due time be alluding to?
Actually there are many verses that allude to universalism but are brushed aside by mainstream Christianity.
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN , specially to those that believe." 1 Tim 4.10-11
"For their is one God and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for ALL TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME." 1 Tim 2.5-6 Since many people never hear about Christ in their lifetime what can this verse about in due time be alluding to?
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How about Paul?
If the concept of eternal punishment in hell is true, isn't it odd that the apostle Paul who, after his conversion, spent his whole life proclaiming the gospel, did not mention hell at all in any of the 12 or 13 letters he wrote which are found in the New Testament?
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
I seem to have a hard time getting questions answered here. I must say we should all be happy if universalism is true but I have grave doubts.
Paidion, I didn't take time to verify it but as I recall Jesus warned of hell more than anyone so Paul's failure to mention it is irrelevant to me. You insist that kolasis means correction, not punishment. Where did you get this? According to Strong's, Wigram, Kittle, NIV Theological Dictionary, and Thayer it has the meaning of punishment, Thayer does say it can mean correction. Do you have better authorities than these? Both Philo and Josephus used it for punishment. Aside from Jesus' use of the word in Matthew 25:46 the only other place it is used in the NT, 1 Jn. 4:18, it would not make sense to translate it correction rather than punishment.
Steve7150, you suggest Jesus didn't teach universalism because they couldn't bear to hear of it. Seems that would not be difficult to hear. In your post of Nov. 13 you seem to take a rather commercial view of atoning for one's sins, as though a certain amount of suffering would "pay" for them. I thought the point of God's grace was that we have a debt impossible to pay. (See the parable of the unmerciful servant.)
If universalism is true, then Jesus' death on the cross only gained a pass for us to avoid a temporary period of corrective suffering?
Paidion, I didn't take time to verify it but as I recall Jesus warned of hell more than anyone so Paul's failure to mention it is irrelevant to me. You insist that kolasis means correction, not punishment. Where did you get this? According to Strong's, Wigram, Kittle, NIV Theological Dictionary, and Thayer it has the meaning of punishment, Thayer does say it can mean correction. Do you have better authorities than these? Both Philo and Josephus used it for punishment. Aside from Jesus' use of the word in Matthew 25:46 the only other place it is used in the NT, 1 Jn. 4:18, it would not make sense to translate it correction rather than punishment.
Steve7150, you suggest Jesus didn't teach universalism because they couldn't bear to hear of it. Seems that would not be difficult to hear. In your post of Nov. 13 you seem to take a rather commercial view of atoning for one's sins, as though a certain amount of suffering would "pay" for them. I thought the point of God's grace was that we have a debt impossible to pay. (See the parable of the unmerciful servant.)
If universalism is true, then Jesus' death on the cross only gained a pass for us to avoid a temporary period of corrective suffering?
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A Berean
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_STEVE7150
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Homer, IMHO you are quite mistaken to say that Paul's not mentioning hell is irelevant because he was responsible for preaching the message to the gentiles who comprise over 99% of the world's population verses Jesus preaching to the jews comprising less then 1% . For Paul and others for that matter to omit a doctrine that would apply to a VAST MAJORITY would be beyond irresponsible.
You'll have to parden me but somehow in your tone i don't sense you would be happy if universalism were true but that's not really here nor there.
I don't know what a "commercial view" of atonement means but i can say that whereever and whenever anyone is saved would be by ultimately accepting Christ as Lord and abiding in him.
I'm sure Paidion can explain "kolasis" as correction because i have also seen that definition and if need be i'll find where it's documented but i know this much. Strong's is a traditional supporter in hellfire and as a human being prone to bias he translated the word as he see's it in his eyes as being correct.
As far as Jesus teaching universalism there would be no point to do that before his atonement knowing man's nature what do you think would happen? But i quoted 2 verses alluding to it and there are MANY MANY more perhaps a hundred all together.
You'll have to parden me but somehow in your tone i don't sense you would be happy if universalism were true but that's not really here nor there.
I don't know what a "commercial view" of atonement means but i can say that whereever and whenever anyone is saved would be by ultimately accepting Christ as Lord and abiding in him.
I'm sure Paidion can explain "kolasis" as correction because i have also seen that definition and if need be i'll find where it's documented but i know this much. Strong's is a traditional supporter in hellfire and as a human being prone to bias he translated the word as he see's it in his eyes as being correct.
As far as Jesus teaching universalism there would be no point to do that before his atonement knowing man's nature what do you think would happen? But i quoted 2 verses alluding to it and there are MANY MANY more perhaps a hundred all together.
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_Father_of_five
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What is the purpose for punishment? If you punish your son is it not for correction? When someone goes to jail for a crime is it not for correction? To me correction and punishment carry the same meaning, otherwise it would say revenge or retribution.Homer wrote:You insist that kolasis means correction, not punishment. Where did you get this? According to Strong's, Wigram, Kittle, NIV Theological Dictionary, and Thayer it has the meaning of punishment, Thayer does say it can mean correction. Do you have better authorities than these? Both Philo and Josephus used it for punishment. Aside from Jesus' use of the word in Matthew 25:46 the only other place it is used in the NT, 1 Jn. 4:18, it would not make sense to translate it correction rather than punishment.
Todd
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I was reading this morning a sermon by Jonathan Edwards based on this passage of scripture, Ezekiel 15:2-4
Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree? Or than a branch which is among the trees of the forest? Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? Or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon? Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel; The fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burnt: Is it meet for any work?
Now, before you stop reading my post merely because he is a Puritan, this thought occured to me:
What is man's purpose? Is it not to bring glory to God? How does the universalist view bring glory to God? By speculating that all God-haters will be in heaven? By bringing unbelievers the "good news" that they don't have to do a thing and will still be in God's company -- eventually. Hey, would you be a Christian, if someone witnessed to you this "gospel" of universal salvation? After all, Christ tells us it is not an easy path to follow Him, that we must take up our cross daily. If that is not required of you for salvation, why even touch it!
The term aionios, which has been brought up to mean "age" or as I have often seen "age-during", is also a term used in reference to God. Is God then not eternal?
If you want to read Jonathan Edward's sermon, it is here:
http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/ ... uction.htm
Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree? Or than a branch which is among the trees of the forest? Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? Or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon? Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel; The fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burnt: Is it meet for any work?
Now, before you stop reading my post merely because he is a Puritan, this thought occured to me:
What is man's purpose? Is it not to bring glory to God? How does the universalist view bring glory to God? By speculating that all God-haters will be in heaven? By bringing unbelievers the "good news" that they don't have to do a thing and will still be in God's company -- eventually. Hey, would you be a Christian, if someone witnessed to you this "gospel" of universal salvation? After all, Christ tells us it is not an easy path to follow Him, that we must take up our cross daily. If that is not required of you for salvation, why even touch it!
The term aionios, which has been brought up to mean "age" or as I have often seen "age-during", is also a term used in reference to God. Is God then not eternal?
If you want to read Jonathan Edward's sermon, it is here:
http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/ ... uction.htm
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Aole Opala No
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_Anonymous
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JJB, The jewish scholars understood "fire" as metaphorical for judgement not a literal burning of the flesh which is why when Jesus spoke to them he used "fire" in the same way. As far as preaching universalism ,i for one would never do that because it serves no purpose and may not be true. I've only said that there is nothing in scripture that limits this life as the only opportunity for repentence and bowing the knee to Jesus. Everyone is raised and evildoers to judgement (krisis) or crisis which simply does'nt mean conviction on the spot. And as we have pointed out follow the trail after people are thrown into the lake of fire, where do we see torment? We see the gates of the city open and we see the Spirit and Bride inviting whosoever to partake in the water of life. Who may that include ? Don't really know if it means everyone or some people ,maybe some were destroyed and whosoever are the one's left.
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_STEVE7150
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Hi, I was the guest. Sometimes when i switch computers i forget to log in. Steve7150
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_STEVE7150
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One last thing in regards to Homer mentioning that lady at the garage sale saying she "does'nt believe in all that crap" i am offended but i'm human only possessing eros love so my reaction of offense is based on how i feel. God having agope love ,loves us unconditionally and is not offended because he knows what is in the heart of man. He knows what is in this lady is in all of us except by the grace of God and as Jesus said to worse offenders "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
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