Alternative Views of Hell
Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
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Again the word judgement in Hebrews 9.27 i believe is the greek word "krisis" not meaning immediate conviction but a trial to judge . And at his second coming he will save those anxiously awaiting him and the rest are judged.
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_Father_of_five
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I realize that this verse has been used to "prove" that there is no chance for repentance after this life, but if you read it carefully I think it is a stretch to say so. Could it not be possible to repent as a result of this judgment? I suppose this is the ultimate question.JJB wrote:Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Todd
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It seems to me that this passage just confirms that judgement does not occur at the instant of death, but at a later point in time (Rev. 20:11, the white throne judgement, I believe). Sometimes v. 27 gets pulled out of the context of the passage. Isn't it comparing mans death and judgement with Christ's atonement and second coming?JJB wrote:Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that (at a later time) comes the (white throne) judgement, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second (later) time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
I've never been able to find anything in the Bible that pins down the instant of death as the time that your eternal fate is sealed.
Please forgive me if I'm repeating something that has already been brought up... I was pretty excited to find this thread and skimmed through it quickly. I've always wondered about this:
Am I correct that the book of life in Rev. 20:12, and the Lambs book of life in 21:27 are two different books? It sounds like the book of life contains the names and works of all the dead, while the Lambs book of life only has the names of those that are allowed into the Holy City. Are there people in the book of life who have not been cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:15), but whose names are not in the Lambs book of life, and therefore not allowed in the Holy City (21:27)? The tree of life in Rev. 22:2 bears leaves for the healing of the nations. Who is in the nations, and why do they need healing?
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2 Tim 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Jesus knows those who are his. When one dies as a believer his soul goes to be with Christ. So, it is determined at one's death if he is part of the elect that will be saved from the fire of His wrath that will consume the earth and burn the elements at his second coming. So what is the nature of the Judgment when all will appear before his judgment seat?...
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
It is NOT to determine who is Christ's. What is the purpose? What is the outcome? This may be an important question in this discussion.
Todd
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Jesus knows those who are his. When one dies as a believer his soul goes to be with Christ. So, it is determined at one's death if he is part of the elect that will be saved from the fire of His wrath that will consume the earth and burn the elements at his second coming. So what is the nature of the Judgment when all will appear before his judgment seat?...
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
It is NOT to determine who is Christ's. What is the purpose? What is the outcome? This may be an important question in this discussion.
Todd
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1 John 2:15-17
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
In this life, while we are in the flesh, we are subject to the frailties of the flesh. When our body dies is it not likely that those things that draw us to sin die also? When we are resurrected in our new incorruptible bodies isn't is likely that we will no longer be subject to those tendencies? We tend to believe perhaps that we will "think" just as we do in this life, but perhaps once we are shed of this earthly flesh we will see and think differently. Perhaps it will be easy for those who are evil in this life to have a whole new outlook in the resurrection.
1 Cor 15:52-54
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Todd
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
In this life, while we are in the flesh, we are subject to the frailties of the flesh. When our body dies is it not likely that those things that draw us to sin die also? When we are resurrected in our new incorruptible bodies isn't is likely that we will no longer be subject to those tendencies? We tend to believe perhaps that we will "think" just as we do in this life, but perhaps once we are shed of this earthly flesh we will see and think differently. Perhaps it will be easy for those who are evil in this life to have a whole new outlook in the resurrection.
1 Cor 15:52-54
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Todd
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This conversation is going all over the place. 
Anyway, I thought I'd add my two cents' worth, since I recently did an overview study on the book of Revelation, including the Great White Throne Judgment and when it happens.
First of all, I need to address a confusing issue. There are some biblical passages which conflate the coming of the Father with the coming of Christ, and link them both to the burning of the earth with fire. Passages where this occurs are Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7 and 10-13, etc.
Notice the dichotomy of "burning" in Malachi 4:1-3. The wicked are burned up, but for the righteous, the "sun" of righteousness appears with healing fire. Compare this with Matthew 3:11-12, where the same dichotomy of fire appears. John the Baptist says that the repentant should wait for Christ, who would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whereas the wicked would be burned up with unquenchable fire.
So what does this mean?
John the Baptist explained it very succintly. He said that the repentant were to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, "and with fire." The answer is that the fire that they would be baptized with is the Holy Spirit! There will come a day when the glory of God (that is, the Holy Spirit) will fill the whole earth (Num. 14:21). To the repentant and righteous, it will be a healing and cleansing fire. To the wicked, it will be a tormenting fire that is never quenched. This is what the "lake of fire" is.
The lake of fire exists when Christ returns (Rev. 19:20). However, there are still those who aren't thrown into the lake of fire until after Satan is released once again (Rev. 20:10). Following this, we see the new heavens and the new earth, which, according to 2 Peter 3:12-13, immediately follow the filling of the earth with the burning and purifying fire of the Holy Spirit. This is when the Father comes, according to Rev. 21:1-4.
In between Christ's return and the coming of the Father, we have the Great White Throne Judgment. It begins at Christ's return (Mat. 25:31-46) and lasts for a thousand years.
There is a spiritual overlay with this period of judgment, also. Judgment is upon the "House of God" right now (1 Pet. 4:17). We endure the purifying "fire" of God in the form of fiery trials (1 Pet. 4:12) which test our love and trust. If we "endure to the end" in love and trust (Mat. 24:12-13), both for God and for one another, then we will be saved and be given eternal life. But if those trials cause our love to grow cold, the Holy Spirit - representing the promise of our eternal inheritance - will be taken away (Heb. 10:22-31 and 6:4-8 ), and we will then be consigned to eternal torment instead of purifying fire.
Sobering, isn't it?
Damon
Anyway, I thought I'd add my two cents' worth, since I recently did an overview study on the book of Revelation, including the Great White Throne Judgment and when it happens.
First of all, I need to address a confusing issue. There are some biblical passages which conflate the coming of the Father with the coming of Christ, and link them both to the burning of the earth with fire. Passages where this occurs are Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7 and 10-13, etc.
Notice the dichotomy of "burning" in Malachi 4:1-3. The wicked are burned up, but for the righteous, the "sun" of righteousness appears with healing fire. Compare this with Matthew 3:11-12, where the same dichotomy of fire appears. John the Baptist says that the repentant should wait for Christ, who would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whereas the wicked would be burned up with unquenchable fire.
So what does this mean?
John the Baptist explained it very succintly. He said that the repentant were to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, "and with fire." The answer is that the fire that they would be baptized with is the Holy Spirit! There will come a day when the glory of God (that is, the Holy Spirit) will fill the whole earth (Num. 14:21). To the repentant and righteous, it will be a healing and cleansing fire. To the wicked, it will be a tormenting fire that is never quenched. This is what the "lake of fire" is.
The lake of fire exists when Christ returns (Rev. 19:20). However, there are still those who aren't thrown into the lake of fire until after Satan is released once again (Rev. 20:10). Following this, we see the new heavens and the new earth, which, according to 2 Peter 3:12-13, immediately follow the filling of the earth with the burning and purifying fire of the Holy Spirit. This is when the Father comes, according to Rev. 21:1-4.
In between Christ's return and the coming of the Father, we have the Great White Throne Judgment. It begins at Christ's return (Mat. 25:31-46) and lasts for a thousand years.
There is a spiritual overlay with this period of judgment, also. Judgment is upon the "House of God" right now (1 Pet. 4:17). We endure the purifying "fire" of God in the form of fiery trials (1 Pet. 4:12) which test our love and trust. If we "endure to the end" in love and trust (Mat. 24:12-13), both for God and for one another, then we will be saved and be given eternal life. But if those trials cause our love to grow cold, the Holy Spirit - representing the promise of our eternal inheritance - will be taken away (Heb. 10:22-31 and 6:4-8 ), and we will then be consigned to eternal torment instead of purifying fire.
Sobering, isn't it?
Damon
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_Father_of_five
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Damon,
It may seem that this thread is "going all over the place," but we have been discussing the judgment and the resurrection from the beginning. It is all related to understanding "Alternative Views of Hell."
I am intrigued with your explanation of John the Baptist's statement about unquenchable fire. I think there may be some merit to it. I would disagree though about the timing; I would think that it would come for the everyone (just and the unjust) at the same time - at the Day of Pentecost.
I appreciate the diversity of thought from everyone who has contributed to this thread. I am trying to determine for myself the truth about Universalism and I am leaning strongly that way now but have not made up my mind just yet. I am trying to make all the pieces fit.
Here's another thought: What if the "eternal" in Jesus statement in Matt 25:46 is referring to the time only up until the "end" as described by Paul in this verse.
1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Todd
It may seem that this thread is "going all over the place," but we have been discussing the judgment and the resurrection from the beginning. It is all related to understanding "Alternative Views of Hell."
I am intrigued with your explanation of John the Baptist's statement about unquenchable fire. I think there may be some merit to it. I would disagree though about the timing; I would think that it would come for the everyone (just and the unjust) at the same time - at the Day of Pentecost.
I appreciate the diversity of thought from everyone who has contributed to this thread. I am trying to determine for myself the truth about Universalism and I am leaning strongly that way now but have not made up my mind just yet. I am trying to make all the pieces fit.
Here's another thought: What if the "eternal" in Jesus statement in Matt 25:46 is referring to the time only up until the "end" as described by Paul in this verse.
1 Cor 15:24-25
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Todd
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