ISA 11:11-12 Most Peoples take?

[Gregorio]

Hi brothers!
What is most peoples take on this? I figure the first gathering is after the Babylonian exile but what would be the second? and old testament fulfilment? or during the pentecost period? or when the church went out? I'm looking to study this more. thanks

Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time with His hand the remnant of His people, who will remain, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations and assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isa. 11:11-12)

[dwilkins]

The passage below starts at least in chapter 8 and extends at least to chapter 12. So, for context I'd suggest that it has to be taken as a unit (though I only quoted the last part):

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a blossom shall come up from his root:
Isa 11:2 and the Spirit of God shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness shall fill him;
Isa 11:3 the spirit of the fear of God. He shall not judge according to appearance, nor reprove according to report:
Isa 11:4 but he shall judge the cause of the lowly, and shall reprove the lowly of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the word of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he destroy the ungodly one.
Isa 11:5 And he shall have his loins girt with righteousness, and his sides clothed with truth.
Isa 11:6 And the wolf shall feed with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the young calf and bull and lion shall feed together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the ox and bear shall feed together; and their young shall be together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And an infant shall put his hand on the holes of asps, and on the nest of young asps.
Isa 11:9 And they shall not hurt, nor shall they at all be able to destroy any one on my holy mountain: for the whole world is filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as much water covers the seas.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall arise to rule over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust, and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall be in that day, that the Lord shall again shew his hand, to be zealous for the remnant that is left of the people, which shall be left by the Assyrians, and that from Egypt, and from the country of Babylon, and from Ethiopia, and from the Elamites, and from the rising of the sun, and out of Arabia.
Isa 11:12 And he shall lift up a standard for the nations, and he shall gather the lost ones of Israel, and he shall gather the dispersed of Juda from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 And the envy of Ephraim shall be taken away, and the enemies of Juda shall perish: Ephraim shall not envy Juda, and Juda shall not afflict Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 And they shall fly in the ships of the Philistines: they shall at the same time spoil the sea, and them that come from the east, and Idumea: and they shall lay their hands on Moab first; but the children of Ammon shall first obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the Lord shall make desolate the sea of Egypt; and he shall lay his hand on the river with a strong wind, and he shall smite the seven channels, so that men shall pass through it dry-shod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be a passage for my people that is left in Egypt: and it shall be to Israel as the day when he came forth out of the land of Egypt.
Isa 12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, I will bless thee, O Lord; for thou wast angry with me, but thou hast turned aside thy wrath, and hast pitied me.
Isa 12:2 Behold, my God is my Saviour; I will trust in him, and not be afraid: for the Lord is my glory and my praise, and is become my salvation.
Isa 12:3 Draw ye therefore water with joy out of the wells of salvation.
Isa 12:4 And in that day thou shalt say, sing to the Lord, call aloud upon his name, proclaim his glorious deeds among the Gentiles; make mention that his name is exalted.
Isa 12:5 Sing praise to the name of the Lord; for he has done great things: declare this in all the earth.
Isa 12:6 Exalt and rejoice, ye that dwell in Sion: for the Holy One of Israel is exalted in the midst of her.

Since the embracing of the Gentiles is a key element of this passage, I'd suggest using a couple of other passages to anchor the timing. First, look at Romans 9 to see what was going on in the 1st Century,

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,
Rom 9:28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."

In this passage Paul is claiming that Hosea's prophecy that "those who were not my people I will call my people" are Gentiles (though, curiously, in Hosea it is the 10 Northern Tribes). Later, he says,

Rom 10:19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry."

This is a quote from Deuteronomy 32, in which the Song of Moses describes the end time of Israel.

Deu 32:21 They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.

Isaiah 11 starts with the entrance of Christ on the scene and goes on to describe what the kingdom of God will be like in idealistic language. It includes language about the adoptions of Gentiles. But, Paul says that the adoption of Gentiles is ongoing in his time. And, the adoption of Gentiles in Paul's time was to make Israel jealous before their destruction per Deut. 32. So, I'd suggest that the early story of Acts and a widespread theme in the New Testament is that the scattered Israelites are being evangelized (to answer the OP directly, you can see this in the list of nations represented at Pentecost) per the promise (first Judea, then the rest of the world). There is no indication from scripture that Gentiles have to have the Lord revealed to them more than once before the end of Israel. Paul says it was going on in his day. So, I'd suggest that for the most part Isaiah 11 is fulfilled in the first century and the ongoing elements of Isaiah 11 are ongoing today.

Doug

[Gregorio]

Thanks Doug, that is some good stuff.. I'll be studying this. I appreciate the input!
Do you recommend any good commentators for the bible? even some that may have an online commentary? That would be helpful to look up some places and people with opinions we trust?

[dwilkins]

Thanks Doug, that is some good stuff.. I'll be studying this. I appreciate the input!
Do you recommend any good commentators for the bible? even some that may have an online commentary? That would be helpful to look up some places and people with opinions we trust?

I don't have a commentator for you. Hard work in a good reference Bible or software is more important. You might benefit from a free interlinear program I was referred to:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

I'd also consider using the Septuagint as your primary OT reference. Though we know that the Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, the Hebrew texts we weren't compiled until almost 1000AD. The Septuagint was translated before Christ's time and was the version of the Bible that is quoted by NT writers for the most part. It think it more accurately represents the text of the old Hebrew text better than the Masoretic Text.

Doug

[Gregorio]

Wow thanks Doug... the septuagent. I had actually been asking someone recently for a good text for the old testament to study or if the Jews use a different version than we do in our bible. I'll look into that. I can't wait to see some of the differences in wording.

Peace
G

[steve7150]

Wow thanks Doug... the septuagent. I had actually been asking someone recently for a good text for the old testament to study or if the Jews use a different version than we do in our bible. I'll look into that. I can't wait to see some of the differences in wording.










I agree with Doug but i want to mention that i do have a Hebrew Tanach (english translation) by Stone which has commentary. It is based on the Masoretic text and is translated by a board of language experts and i think is useful to compare with the interpretations the NT writers used when quoting the OT.

[kaufmannphillips]

Regarding the Septuagint:

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... =Masoretic

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 798#p41798

[backwoodsman]

I'd take it to mean God gathering His people into the church, both initially and ongoing. (More or less what Doug said.)

Do you recommend any good commentators for the bible?

Albert Barnes is almost always the first commentary I look at. It's available almost anywhere there are commentaries in electronic form (online and Bible software), and of course in hard copy as well.

That would be helpful to look up some places and people with opinions we trust?

Depends what you mean by trusting their opinion. Commentaries and teachers are best used to help one understand and think through issues, and to provide relevant info and scholarship (linguistic, historical, cultural, etc.) that we wouldn't otherwise have. So it's not necessarily those with which I agree the most that I find most helpful, but those that explain from Scripture why they believe as they do, and the problems they see with other views. I'd say I trust Barnes' (and a few others') ability to do that, but I don't always agree with his conclusions.

[Gregorio]

Wow, thanks for the links.. I've got some reading to do.. The tanak looks great.. So another related question is... I noticed that the supposed earliest versions of the septuagint are from Codex Vaticanus and Sanaiticus A... and I had always heard that these were conspicuosly found in the monastery trash and vatican in the late 1800's but were considered 'older and more reliable' because the paper was older and the text was more readable than most any codex's around. What is your opinion on this and if this is more true are there versions of the Septuagint that are Pre-Jerome? when the masoretic text began to be used more? Are there non vaticanus and saniaticus Septuagints available? And please forgive me, a young, starting out, scholar.. I am still building my views on things and wish to be thorough !! ;^)

I saw on a few websites the major differences of the Septuagint and Masoretic texts... amazing.. One website said the Masoretic was being changed from around second century through the 9th I believe ....that the original Septuagint had minor problems in translation from Hebrew to Greek but was widely accepted, but the Jews did not accept the Septuagint later in the earlly church partly because they didn't like it's links to Christianity and the minor errors in translation, especially in certain books ...Ezekial..etc..

Thanks for any info you can give..

Greg

[Gregorio]

Thanks Steve7150 and Kaufmannphillips... i'm reading through some of this now... I appreciate the info.