The Deity of Jesus

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:25 pm

darinhouston wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 8:24 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:22 am
Luke 16:17-19 - "Jesus came down with them ... and there was a large crowd of His disciples, and a great throng of people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon, who had come to hear Him and to be healed of their diseases; and those who were troubled with unclean spirits were being cured. And all the people were trying to touch Him, for power was coming from Him and healing them all."

No mere human, no matter how filled with the Holy Spirit, nor how much he is led by the Spirit, has ever, or could ever produce these kinds of supernatural results. Only God could do this, and indeed it was God who did these hundreds, and maybe even thousands of miracles.
Yes, only God can do this and God did this through both Jesus and His apostles.

Dwight - That reference should be Luke 6:17-19. His disciples were not even given such power until Luke 9:1, so all the miracles here were done exclusively by Jesus. That is, a large crowd of His disciples, and a great throng of people from Judea, Jerusalem and the region of Tyre and Sidon - hundreds, maybe thousands of miracles. The disciples never produced such huge results, nor could they.

Dwight - Also, no mere human could give 12 of his disciples "power and authority over ALL the demons and to heal diseases". Luke 9:1 Only God could give that power and that authority to 12 men. But here we see Jesus doing it, because He is God.


dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:22 am
In His sermon on the mount, He taught with the authority that only God has. What human could ever say that he came to fulfill the law? What human actually clarified what constituted adultery? The law never did that. What human could or ever did promise rewards from God the Father for doing good works without wanting to be seen? What human being could ever say that he had the authority to deny or allow entry to anyone wishing to enter the kingdom of heaven?
It seems clear to me that all the things he spoke he received from the Father.

Dwight - Of course, the Father and the Son were in constant communication, but did the Father ever allow a mere human to say that he came to fulfill the Law? Or that he knew what constituted adultery? Or that he could decide who goes to heaven and who does not?

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:44 pm

Jesus said that He had the authority to send HIS ANGELS "from one end of the sky to the other". Matthew 24:30-31 What mere human has his OWN angels? What mere human has the authority to send angels anywhere?

What mere human could promise rest for millions of people down through the centuries? Matthew 11:28 What mere human could transfigure himself?

What mere human could be the son of David and the Lord of David at the same time? Matthew 22:41-45

What mere human could take away the sin of the world? John 1:29

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:39 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:22 am
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:22 am
Luke 16:17-19 - "Jesus came down with them ... and there was a large crowd of His disciples, and a great throng of people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the coastal region of Tyre and Sidon, who had come to hear Him and to be healed of their diseases; and those who were troubled with unclean spirits were being cured. And all the people were trying to touch Him, for power was coming from Him and healing them all."

No mere human, no matter how filled with the Holy Spirit, nor how much he is led by the Spirit, has ever, or could ever produce these kinds of supernatural results. Only God could do this, and indeed it was God who did these hundreds, and maybe even thousands of miracles.
Yes, only God can do this and God did this through both Jesus and His apostles.

Dwight - That reference should be Luke 6:17-19. His disciples were not even given such power until Luke 9:1, so all the miracles here were done exclusively by Jesus. That is, a large crowd of His disciples, and a great throng of people from Judea, Jerusalem and the region of Tyre and Sidon - hundreds, maybe thousands of miracles. The disciples never produced such huge results, nor could they.

Dwight - Also, no mere human could give 12 of his disciples "power and authority over ALL the demons and to heal diseases". Luke 9:1 Only God could give that power and that authority to 12 men. But here we see Jesus doing it, because He is God.
"were not given until" - so, they were given them so that's not a proof of divinity. You're talking a matter of degree, not a difference of kind.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:22 am
In His sermon on the mount, He taught with the authority that only God has. What human could ever say that he came to fulfill the law? What human actually clarified what constituted adultery? The law never did that. What human could or ever did promise rewards from God the Father for doing good works without wanting to be seen? What human being could ever say that he had the authority to deny or allow entry to anyone wishing to enter the kingdom of heaven?


It seems clear to me that all the things he spoke he received from the Father.

Dwight - Of course, the Father and the Son were in constant communication, but did the Father ever allow a mere human to say that he came to fulfill the Law? Or that he knew what constituted adultery? Or that he could decide who goes to heaven and who does not?
Yes, he actually did allow (and enable) Jesus to do that (though I would not call him a "mere" man).

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:50 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:44 pm
Jesus said that He had the authority to send HIS ANGELS "from one end of the sky to the other". Matthew 24:30-31 What mere human has his OWN angels? What mere human has the authority to send angels anywhere?
The one given that authority.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:44 pm
What mere human could promise rest for millions of people down through the centuries? Matthew 11:28
The one bringing that message from his Father.
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:44 pm
What mere human could transfigure himself?
Not that this would prove anything in and of himself, but where do you get the idea that he transfigured himself?
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:44 pm
What mere human could be the son of David and the Lord of David at the same time? Matthew 22:41-45
Well, the one who has the title and office of son of David (a man) and who also has the position and office of lord of all (including David).
dwight92070 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:44 pm
What mere human could take away the sin of the world? John 1:29
The one who was given that calling - remember, the scapegoat was said to have "taken away the sins" and yet that goat wasn't God.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm

So you agreed six time then, that Jesus is a mere human, even though the Bible makes it clear again and again that He is much more than that. To me and millions of others, Jesus is God in the flesh.

1. I agree with Thomas: He is my Lord and my God. John 20:28

2 I agree with Peter: "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Jesus is my God and Savior.

3. I agree with Paul: "God our Savior", Titus 1:3 and "Christ Jesus our Savior", verse 4; "God our Savior" Titus 2:10, "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" verse 13; "God our Savior", Titus 3:4, "Jesus Christ our Savior", verse 6.

4. I agree with John: "And the Word was God ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:1, 14

Jesus is not just my God and Savior, He is OUR great God and Savior, Who became flesh and dwelt among us.
It appears then, that Jesus is not your God, but to you, He is a mere human.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:52 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm
So you agreed six time then, that Jesus is a mere human, even though the Bible makes it clear again and again that He is much more than that. To me and millions of others, Jesus is God in the flesh.
That's unfair - I clearly stated I don't agree he is "mere human." Those are your words. The things you have pointed to can and have been done by mere humans, so they don't prove your point. But, I expressly refused to agree that he was a "mere human." You don't appear to appreciate what may seem to be a nuance here, but it's a big one.
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm

1. I agree with Thomas: He is my Lord and my God. John 20:28
As we have discussed before, I interpret that passage differently. But, even if Jesus was in some sense "a god" to Thomas, we can discuss (and have discussed) how that term is used even by people who would strongly hold to there only being one true God.
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm
2 I agree with Peter: "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Jesus is my God and Savior.
Again, we have discussed this - I don't see Peter calling Jesus Christ God in this passage but instead distinguishing Jesus from God - translations vary here and it's more clear in some than others.
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm
3. I agree with Paul: "God our Savior", Titus 1:3 and "Christ Jesus our Savior", verse 4; "God our Savior" Titus 2:10, "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" verse 13; "God our Savior", Titus 3:4, "Jesus Christ our Savior", verse 6.
I've made this point before also - there's nothing wrong with calling Jesus our savior even he is saving us through the power of God - he is the agency by which God saves us. That makes him our savior in a way but not necessarily God.
dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 pm
4. I agree with John: "And the Word was God ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:1, 14

Jesus is not just my God and Savior, He is OUR great God and Savior, Who became flesh and dwelt among us.
It appears then, that Jesus is not your God, but to you, He is a mere human.
Not being "the one true God" does not mean he is a mere human. We've discussed the preamble to John many times.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:40 pm

You're trying to create some kind of being that is man but not a mere man, yet he is also not God, making him somewhere in between. The Bible nowhere tells us that such a being exists. We have God, man, Satan, the angels, the cherubim and seraphim, demons (if they're different than angels), and animal, fish, and bird life, insects, etc. That's it, there's no reference to beings or a being that looks like a man, and is in fact a man, and yet he is much more than a man, and he is much more than even the angels, who the Bible calls God, yet he is still not God. That's not found in the Bible. That's a totally fabricated being that the Bible says nothing about.

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dwight92070
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:00 am

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father." John 5:22-23

We are told to honor the Son JUST AS we honor the Father. How do we honor the Father? Of course by obeying Him, but we also honor Him by calling Him God, because that's Who He is. We are to honor Jesus JUST AS we honor the Father. Yes, we honor Jesus by obeying Him, but we also honor Jesus by calling Him God, because that's Who He is.

Jesus said: No servant can serve two masters. No man can serve two Gods. Elijah told Israel, "If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal (is God), follow him." Can we not make the same statement here? If the Father is God, follow Him; but if Jesus is God, follow Him. Either the Father is our Master or Jesus is our Master. We cannot serve two Masters. Yet we are commanded to love, obey, serve, honor, and put our faith in Jesus JUST AS we are to love, obey, serve, honor, and put our faith in the Father. The truth is that we are not serving two Gods or three Gods. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet we have only one God. We have only one Master.

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me." John 14:1

Jesus said, "Have faith in God." We know that putting our faith in God and putting our faith in Jesus are the SAME THING.

Jeremiah said, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength, and whose heart turns away from the Lord." Jeremiah 17:5

If we were to put our trust in a man who is not God, but who is also not just a mere man (assuming such a man ever existed), then we would be under a curse. We know that such a man is just a figment of the imagination of those who reject Jesus as their God.

dizerner

Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by dizerner » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:20 pm


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darinhouston
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Re: The Deity of Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:19 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:40 pm
You're trying to create some kind of being that is man but not a mere man, yet he is also not God, making him somewhere in between. The Bible nowhere tells us that such a being exists. We have God, man, Satan, the angels, the cherubim and seraphim, demons (if they're different than angels), and animal, fish, and bird life, insects, etc. That's it, there's no reference to beings or a being that looks like a man, and is in fact a man, and yet he is much more than a man, and he is much more than even the angels, who the Bible calls God, yet he is still not God. That's not found in the Bible. That's a totally fabricated being that the Bible says nothing about.
No, you're the one trying to create a "category" here - "mere" is a qualifier - an adjective that doesn't pertain to Jesus - not because he's some sort of hybrid being (that's your inference from my position, not my actual position) but a real man who is not an "ordinary" man - a man with no earthly father who was spiritually conceived, untainted by the fall, sinless, filled with the spirit, appointed by the Father to deliver and save mankind, exalted to his right hand to rule as his son, is no "mere" man, though also not "other" than man - he was a real man - a human.

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