Jesus is God

[Homer]

Dwight,

You wrote:

Jesus didn't need to repent. How is that an example for us? Should we follow His example and not repent? Pretty silly, right?

That is irrelevant. The example is in that we have no need for sorrow and repentance when we do what is right in God's sight. Rather, I have in the past experienced great joy in helping others in a helpless situations when it was considerably inconvenient to do so and my natural self cried out to do otherwise. And I have felt the sting of regret when I have failed to help. I am sure Jesus never had that feeling!

What about Paul? Wouldn't you think that he followed Jesus' example? Paul said, "Imitate Me just as I also imitate Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1 Yet Paul spoke of his own faith at least two dozen times. How many times did Jesus speak of His own faith? ZERO So was Paul not following Christ's example? Of course He was.

Again irrelevant.

kenosis noun ke·​no·​sis kə-ˈnō-səs kē- : the relinquishment of divine attributes by Jesus Christ in becoming human

I am curious just what you think the kenosis of Jesus entailed? Contrary to what many think I believe it was possible for Him to have sinned but He never did. Again, how would it be an example to us if He never did what was impossible for Him?

As an aside, you would do me a great favor, if when you respond to the posts of others, you would hit the quote symbol of those you copy and paste. It is confusing at times to my old head trying to determine who is saying what. Thanks much for your consideration of this!

[dwight92070]

Hebrews tells us the Son had faith:

And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." (Heb. 2:13 NKJ)

Dwight - I answered this quite thoroughly in my 10:36 a.m. post. It's a quote from Isaiah 8:17


Jesus had to fulfill the Law and the Law required faith in God.

Dwight - Jesus DID fulfill the Law, which is why we are no longer under it. Also Galatians 3:12 says: "Yet the law is not of faith, but the man who does them shall live by them." The Law required obedience, not faith.

[dwight92070]

Dwight,

Jesus didn't need to repent. How is that an example for us? Should we follow His example and not repent? Pretty silly, right?

That is irrelevant. The example is in that we have no need for sorrow and repentance when we do what is right in God's sight. Rather, I have in the past experienced great joy in helping others in a helpless situations when it was considerably inconvenient to do so and my natural self cried out to do otherwise. And I have felt the sting of regret when I have failed to help. I am sure Jesus never had that feeling!

What about Paul? Wouldn't you think that he followed Jesus' example? Paul said, "Imitate Me just as I also imitate Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1 Yet Paul spoke of his own faith at least two dozen times. How many times did Jesus speak of His own faith? ZERO So was Paul not following Christ's example? Of course He was.

Again irrelevant.

I can't believe that you say scriptural examples are not relevant. You brought up the topic of "How could Jesus be our example, if He didn't need faith?" I answered with a similar question: "How could He be our example, if He didn't need to repent?" The answer is: "Even though He doesn't need repentance, He is STILL our example". Repentance is something that He expects from us, but He doesn't need it. The same is true with faith. Faith is something He expects from us, but He doesn't need it. Even though He doesn't need faith, He is STILL our example.

Regarding Paul, he would be my first choice of someone who followed Christ's example, even though he did not follow Christ in the area that I brought up:
The area I'm referring to is: speaking about one's own faith. Paul did that about 24 times in the Bible. So we would expect, if he was following Jesus, that Jesus spoke about His own faith at least 24 times. But Jesus NEVER spoke about His own faith. Why? Because He didn't need faith.

kenosis noun ke·​no·​sis kə-ˈnō-səs kē- : the relinquishment of divine attributes by Jesus Christ in becoming human

I am curious just what you think the kenosis of Jesus entailed? Contrary to what many think I believe it was possible for Him to have sinned but He never did. Again, how would it be an example to us if He never did what was impossible for Him?

None of us know really how much and exactly what Jesus relinquished, when He "emptied Himself"to become a man. But we know that He was still called God on earth, still worshiped as only God should be, so I guess I don't see Him giving up much in the way of His attributes, but more likely He was giving up His status.

As an aside, you would do me a great favor, if when you respond to the posts of others, you would hit the quote symbol of those you copy and paste. It is confusing at times to my old head trying to determine who is saying what. Thanks much for your consideration of this!

[darinhouston]

I am curious just what you think the kenosis of Jesus entailed? Contrary to what many think I believe it was possible for Him to have sinned but He never did. Again, how would it be an example to us if He never did what was impossible for Him?

I don't subscribe to kenosis but your point is the same whether he was inherently human or put aside something to permit him to be truly human somehow. Even more, if it wasn't possible for him to sin, he was not really tempted like us and his life lived fails to do what Scripture tells us was its primary purpose - and he was just some manifestation of God showing off how different he is from us - that is not the gospel.

As an aside, you would do me a great favor, if when you respond to the posts of others, you would hit the quote symbol of those you copy and paste. It is confusing at times to my old head trying to determine who is saying what. Thanks much for your consideration of this!

Amen

[jeremiah]

Hello Dwight,

I can't understand how it could be said of Jesus, that he had no need of, nor possessed faith in his father. What other than faith would you call the means by which Hebrews 5:9 says he was made perfect? It says he offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears to the one able to save him from death(v.7), and he learned obedience by the things which he suffered(v.8).

If this obedience was not learned through faith and trust in his father, then what would you call it brother?

[dwight92070]

Hello Dwight,

I can't understand how it could be said of Jesus, that he had no need of, nor possessed faith in his father. What other than faith would you call the means by which Hebrews 5:9 says he was made perfect? It says he offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears to the one able to save him from death(v.7), and he learned obedience by the things which he suffered(v.8).

If this obedience was not learned through faith and trust in his father, then what would you call it brother?

Jeremiah, I think the answer is right in the verse itself. It does not say that He learned obedience through faith and trust in His Father. Rather it says,"He learned obedience by the things which He suffered." There's no need to add anything to that verse that isn't already there. I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand that, but it won't be the first time.

[dwight92070]

Jeremiah, just an afterthought, and I did mention this earlier. How would you account for the fact that Jesus spoke of the importance of faith around 100 times - but ALWAYS OUR faith? (Compare that with only 32 verses mentioning His teaching on love.) So faith was very important to Him, BUT HE never spoke of His OWN faith! The New Testament speaks freely of Jesus' other virtues: love, compassion, gentleness, knowledge, wisdom, goodness, forgiveness, humility, joy, prayer, obedience, and patience. These are not just inferred by His life, rather the Bible tells us He had these virtues. But He is never described as having faith. Given all of that, if Jesus had faith, it should be plastered all over the scripture - but it's not.

This is why, when I hear people say, "Oh Jesus demonstrated His faith here, and here, and there - many times, but it wasn't necessary to use the word 'faith' ", it doesn't line up with the fact that the New Testament actually "labels" all of His other virtues.

Regarding Hebrews 5:8, why would Jesus need to learn obedience? Didn't He always obey? One teacher said that actually Jesus learned obedience (in the face of) suffering, as WE are called to do. So we can be assured that He knows what we go through. That is, He "walked in our shoes" and became "a High priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses. Hebrews 4:15

[dizerner]

Some good arguments here:

Theological Considerations

First, we will survey the biblical data concerning the issue of Christ's faith, and come to an acceptable theological conclusion by way of inductive reasoning. The first verse we will look at is found in Hebrews 11:6, which says: "without faith, it is impossible to please Him [God], for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him" (ESV).

This might not jump out at you at first glance, but read the verse again, and ask yourself this: If it is impossible to please God without faith, then wouldn't Jesus have had to possess faith in order to please God? Of course! And when the Father says at Jesus' baptism: "in Him [Jesus] I am well pleased," does this not close the case that Jesus had faith? For, if God the Father was pleased with Jesus, then Jesus must have had faith, because it is impossible to please God without faith!

There is another instance where we can infer that Jesus indeed had faith, and this is found in Matthew 27:43, which says: "He [Jesus] trusts in God; let God deliver Him now, if He desires Him. For He [Jesus] said, 'I am the Son of God'" (ESV). From this verse, which relates a scene from Jesus' crucifixion, we can at least conclude that others believed Jesus had faith in the Father; but, of course, that could be due to others' denial of Jesus' deity. And at most, from this verse, we can infer that Jesus actually had faith in God the Father and demonstrated that fact various times.

The last verse we will look at theologically is Hebrews 10:38 (repeated in Galatians 3:11), which says: "but My Righteous One shall live by faith, and if He shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in Him" (ESV). If the Hebrews passage is talking about the Messiah, which many believe it is, then this is saying that Jesus—the Righteous One—lived by faith. Even if the verse is not talking about the Messiah, it still applies that if the person in question did not have faith, God would not be pleased with him. But as we saw above, God was pleased with Jesus (Matthew 27:43).

Some might say that Jesus had faith in Himself and who He was, and that may certainly be the case (and would not be wrong), but if Jesus is to be an example to us as to how we should relate to God, we believe it is best to say that Jesus had faith in God the Father. In other words, the object of Jesus' faith was His Father. Jesus trusted that the Father would vindicate Him and raise Him from the dead. Now, this makes more sense with respect to His human nature, but perhaps there is room to say that even within the Trinity, there is full trust among each Person.

https://www.truthinformed.com/did-jesus-have-faith/

[dwight92070]

Some good arguments here:

Theological Considerations

First, we will survey the biblical data concerning the issue of Christ's faith, and come to an acceptable theological conclusion by way of inductive reasoning. The first verse we will look at is found in Hebrews 11:6, which says: "without faith, it is impossible to please Him [God], for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him" (ESV).

This might not jump out at you at first glance, but read the verse again, and ask yourself this: If it is impossible to please God without faith, then wouldn't Jesus have had to possess faith in order to please God? Of course! And when the Father says at Jesus' baptism: "in Him [Jesus] I am well pleased," does this not close the case that Jesus had faith? For, if God the Father was pleased with Jesus, then Jesus must have had faith, because it is impossible to please God without faith!

There is another instance where we can infer that Jesus indeed had faith, and this is found in Matthew 27:43, which says: "He [Jesus] trusts in God; let God deliver Him now, if He desires Him. For He [Jesus] said, 'I am the Son of God'" (ESV). From this verse, which relates a scene from Jesus' crucifixion, we can at least conclude that others believed Jesus had faith in the Father; but, of course, that could be due to others' denial of Jesus' deity. And at most, from this verse, we can infer that Jesus actually had faith in God the Father and demonstrated that fact various times.

The last verse we will look at theologically is Hebrews 10:38 (repeated in Galatians 3:11), which says: "but My Righteous One shall live by faith, and if He shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in Him" (ESV). If the Hebrews passage is talking about the Messiah, which many believe it is, then this is saying that Jesus—the Righteous One—lived by faith. Even if the verse is not talking about the Messiah, it still applies that if the person in question did not have faith, God would not be pleased with him. But as we saw above, God was pleased with Jesus (Matthew 27:43).

Some might say that Jesus had faith in Himself and who He was, and that may certainly be the case (and would not be wrong), but if Jesus is to be an example to us as to how we should relate to God, we believe it is best to say that Jesus had faith in God the Father. In other words, the object of Jesus' faith was His Father. Jesus trusted that the Father would vindicate Him and raise Him from the dead. Now, this makes more sense with respect to His human nature, but perhaps there is room to say that even within the Trinity, there is full trust among each Person.

https://www.truthinformed.com/did-jesus-have-faith/

First, Hebrews 11:6 is speaking of OUR faith, that is, man's faith, not Jesus' faith, WHO IS GOD. Without faith, it is impossible to please God (or God in the flesh -Jesus), for whoever would draw near to God (or Jesus) must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.

No, Jesus would not need faith to please God, because He was God. Of course the Father was pleased with His Son, but if that means that Jesus had to have faith, then the scripture would have told us that He had faith.

Matthew 27:43 - Yes, it appeared to many that Jesus had faith - even many on this forum are saying it - but the Bible doesn't say that. Here in Matthew, these who were shouting this were enemies of Jesus and of God. But even His closest disciples, those who wrote scripture, did not tell us that Jesus had faith.

Hebrews 10:38, which I have already commented on in a previous post is NOT speaking of Jesus. God would NEVER say about Jesus: "And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him." This verse quotes Habakkuk 2:4, which is NOT a prophecy of Jesus. Paul, in Galatians 3:11, is NOT referring to Jesus, and now Hebrews 10:38 is also NOT speaking of Jesus.

Nowhere do we see Jesus having "faith in Himself". We don't see Jesus having faith -period. Besides the scripture saying that God would raise Jesus from the dead, Jesus said that He would raise Himself from the dead. Faith is not mentioned here at all.

[dwight92070]

Look at the scene in Revelations 4 and 5, where there is "One sitting on the throne" and around Him were 24 elders, clothed in white garments and golden crowns on their heads, sitting on 24 thrones and "four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind". And the creatures and elders, FALL DOWN before Him, and worship Him who lives forever and ever.

In verse 6, a Lamb is seen, Who has been STANDING in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders. Why would He not also be falling down before the throne, like the 24 elders??? The Lamb is the only One qualified to open the book and to break its seals. Notice in verse 6 that the Lamb, still standing, WALKS UP to the throne and TAKES THE BOOK OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE!!!
What chutzpah!! He doesn't fall down before the throne, He remains standing. HE DOESN'T EVEN SAY: "MAY I HAVE THE BOOK PLEASE?"

Then the creatures and the elders fall down before the LAMB and sing a new song to worship the LAMB.

Then, in verses 11-12, millions of angels join in with the living creatures and the elders to worship the LAMB.

Finally, in verses 13-14, the millions of angels, and the living creatures and the elders, are joined by every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, to worship Him who sits on the throne AND the Lamb. The elders again fall down and worship, the creatures say "Amen".

Nowhere in these two chapters do we see the Lamb falling down and worshiping Him who sits on the throne. Rather, the Lamb Himself receives equal praise, worship, and honor as the One who sits on the throne.

That ought to tell us something!