Jesus is God

[dizerner]

basically means "Godness" similar to how God is used in john 1 a hapax legomena in scripture

decent discussion on it

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ ... ns-29-mean

[darinhouston]

Sure we are said to seek to be filled with God's fullness but this is not the same as specifically saying we actually contain that fullness.

The only logically possible way the fullness of Deity with infinite attributes could dwell in a body, is if God himself became the Person living in it.

If you contain the fullness of God, you are not God - having the fullness contained with a person does not make that person contain another person (namely God). There's no sense of personhood here as pertains to what is contained in the bodily form of Jesus. If anything this clearly distinguishes the person of Jesus from that which is contained in him (if it's in fact a "thing" or "person" that's contained). And just because his "fullness" (whatever that means) dwelt in Jesus, that does not mean it was a separate person. And if it was, it would be separate also from Jesus and hint at a Spirit Christology akin to possession (largely considered a heresy by Trinitarians).

The Ark of the Covenant and the Holy of Holies "contained" God in the form of His Spirit. Until Christ, no person had contained the Spirit. He had it in fullness because he was without sin and was obedient unto death and was uniquely ordained and anointed to do so. In a similar way, the Church collectively today contains the Spirit and is by analogy the "body" of Christ (perhaps in its fullness collectively). Individually, we likewise have God (in the form of His Spirit) dwelling in us, but due to our sinfulness and broken nature, we have it only in part. Jesus had it in its fullness. I do believe that is very much the nature of what is being taught here. Not something metaphysical about the so-called godhead. (a term not actually in the text)

[dwight92070]

Sure we are said to seek to be filled with God's fullness but this is not the same as specifically saying we actually contain that fullness.

The only logically possible way the fullness of Deity with infinite attributes could dwell in a body, is if God himself became the Person living in it.

If you contain the fullness of God, you are not God

Dwight - Correct, if we, the body of Christ, contain the fullness of God. Incorrect, if Jesus contains the fullness of God.

- having the fullness contained with a person does not make that person contain another person (namely God).

Dwight - Right, if the person is Jesus, He not only contains God, He is God. "I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me."

There's no sense of personhood here as pertains to what is contained in the bodily form of Jesus.

Dwight - So the fullness of God doesn't pertain to the "person" of God? Common understanding of English indicates otherwise.

If anything this clearly distinguishes the person of Jesus from that which is contained in him (if it's in fact a "thing" or "person" that's contained).

Dwight - I don't see that to be a clear distinction at all. This is affirmed in John 10:30 "I and the Father are One."

And just because his "fullness" (whatever that means) dwelt in Jesus, that does not mean it was a separate person.

Dwight - You are correct, the fullness of God, which is the person of God, is not a separate person from Jesus. "I and the Father are One." And yet, at the same time, the Father and the Son are separate.

And if it was, it would be separate also from Jesus and hint at a Spirit Christology akin to possession (largely considered a heresy by Trinitarians).

Dwight - But it's not.

The Ark of the Covenant and the Holy of Holies "contained" God in the form of His Spirit. Until Christ, no person had contained the Spirit. He had it in fullness because he was without sin and was obedient unto death and was uniquely ordained and anointed to do so.

Dwight - And because He was God in the flesh.

In a similar way, the Church collectively today contains the Spirit and is by analogy the "body" of Christ (perhaps in its fullness collectively). Individually, we likewise have God (in the form of His Spirit) dwelling in us, but due to our sinfulness and broken nature, we have it only in part. Jesus had it in its fullness.

I do believe that is very much the nature of what is being taught here. Not something metaphysical about the so-called godhead. (a term not actually in the text)

Dwight -We disagree on what is being taught here. The Godhead, though not mentioned here, is mentioned in Colossians 2:9 - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

[dwight92070]

Have you noticed that the gospels speak about Jesus' love, compassion, gentleness, knowledge, wisdom, goodness, forgiveness, humility, joy, prayer, obedience, patience, servanthood , sacrifice, mercy, and diligence, but never once does it talk about His faith? Is that amazing or what?

[darinhouston]

Dwight -We disagree on what is being taught here. The Godhead, though not mentioned here, is mentioned in Colossians 2:9 - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

I won't bother with the rest of it, but again... you mention something about scripture that is not true. What greek word is rightly translated "godhead," exactly? Forms similar to θεότης are each used only once in scripture to my knowledge and though they vary slightly from one another, generally this form at least is used to refer to a more abstract sense of divinity or divine essence or "god-related stuff". Not to a concrete corporate/trinitarian/composite "GOD" or even a distinct "person" called God. A similar form of the word is used in Romans 1 to refer to what is revealed in nature.

[darinhouston]

Have you noticed that the gospels speak about Jesus' love, compassion, gentleness, knowledge, wisdom, goodness, forgiveness, humility, joy, prayer, obedience, patience, servanthood , sacrifice, mercy, and diligence, but never once does it talk about His faith? Is that amazing or what?

We've been down this road - Scripture is replete with descriptions of his faith and faithfulness even if the word is not used.

Lots of articles on this if you're interested -- here's one from a mainstream Presbyterian pastor on Crossway...

https://www.crossway.org/articles/did-j ... -and-love/

Did Jesus Possess Faith and Hope?

Yes, as a true man, he was filled with all spiritual virtues and graces, including faith, hope, and love.

Peter Lombard asks in his Sentences whether Christ had faith and hope as he had charity (love).1 He comes to the conclusion that Christ did not possess faith and hope.2 [But, as we] imitate Christ, the man of faith . . . I think we must say of Christ that he possessed these three theological virtues.

Being fully human, Christ had the ability to grow in his graces: “And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). We receive various graces from Christ, such as faith, hope, and love, because he possessed these graces preeminently in himself.

Jesus is distinguished as the pioneer of our faith since he himself had unwavering faith during the course of his life on earth (Heb. 12:2). The book of Hebrews explicitly connects faith (trust) to Christ, attributing to him these words: “I will put my trust in him” (Heb. 2:13). No one believed God’s promises and lived his or her life in light of those promises like Jesus did (Heb. 10:37–38). Though his family doubted him, his disciples abandoned him, his friend denied him, and his fellow Jews rejected him, Jesus had faith to trust his Father, who would one day (at his resurrection) vindicate him (Isa. 50:6–9). Christ no doubt loved the words of Psalm 16:1, “Preserve me, O God, for in you I take refuge.”

As one who had faith, he also necessarily had hope. He lived constantly with the hope of better things to come. His life was a life of humiliation, but he hoped for his exaltation (John 17). Unchangeable promises were made to Christ. As the faithful last Adam, Christ not only believed that he would one day be glorified in the presence of his Father at his right hand but also necessarily hoped for that day to arrive. If he did not hope for the promises made to him, then he surely was not truly human.

Christ had a particular hope in his own resurrection (see Psalm 16). He knew he would die, but he also knew he would be raised (Mark 10:33–34). In the pain and agony of Golgotha, Christ never lost hope that he would be vindicated. He never lost hope that his temporal sufferings would pale in comparison to the glory that would be given to him (see Rom. 8:18).

The threefold cord of Christ’s life was completed by love. God is love, but Christ is love covered in flesh. Everything about Christ’s life falls under the category of love. He had love for his disciples: “Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end” (John 13:1). He had love for his enemies: “And Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do’” (Luke 23:34). He had love for the crowds of needy people (Mark 6:34–44). But he had a special love for his Father: “I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father” (John 14:31). Indeed, he explicitly connects his love toward the Father with keeping his Father’s commandments. Jesus could not have endured all that he endured, as the obedient Son, if he did not have love for his Father.

Christ had to have trust in his Father, hope in his Father’s promises, and love for his Father in order to bestow on us those graces that are first in him. We can say with great praise that we are “so thankful for the faith, hope, and love of Christ; no hope without them.”

[Homer]

Wouldn't we expect Him to have perfect faith; He "emptied Himself" which would then presuppose a need for faith , Him being fully human? Without the need for faith how would He have been an example for us?

[dwight92070]

Have you noticed that the gospels speak about Jesus' love, compassion, gentleness, knowledge, wisdom, goodness, forgiveness, humility, joy, prayer, obedience, patience, servanthood , sacrifice, mercy, and diligence, but never once does it talk about His faith? Is that amazing or what?

We've been down this road - Scripture is replete with descriptions of his faith and faithfulness even if the word is not used.

Lots of articles on this if you're interested -- here's one from a mainstream Presbyterian pastor on Crossway...

https://www.crossway.org/articles/did-j ... -and-love/

Did Jesus Possess Faith and Hope?

Yes, as a true man, he was filled with all spiritual virtues and graces, including faith, hope, and love.

Dwight - That's no proof. As God in the flesh, He didn't need faith in God and hope in God. God doesn't need faith and hope in God.

Peter Lombard asks in his Sentences whether Christ had faith and hope as he had charity (love).1 He comes to the conclusion that Christ did not possess faith and hope.2 [But, as we] imitate Christ, the man of faith . . . I think we must say of Christ that he possessed these three theological virtues.

Dwight - No, you don't prove Jesus had faith by simply calling Him "the man of faith".

Being fully human, Christ had the ability to grow in his graces: “And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). We receive various graces from Christ, such as faith, hope, and love, because he possessed these graces preeminently in himself.

Dwight - Yes, we receive faith, hope, and love, from Christ, but He Himself has no need for faith and hope in Himself.

Jesus is distinguished as the pioneer of our faith since he himself had unwavering faith during the course of his life on earth (Heb. 12:2).

Dwight - Yes, He is the author and finisher of OUR faith. This says nothing about HIS faith, because He doesn't need faith in Himself.

The book of Hebrews explicitly connects faith (trust) to Christ, attributing to him these words: “I will put my trust in him” (Heb. 2:13).

Dwight - The Hebrew word here is "qavah". It means "to wait for". So it literally means "I will wait for Him", which is not the same as faith. True, a person can wait in faith, but Jesus didn't need to wait in faith in Himself. There were many times, however, when He waited for God's perfect timing. He waited 30 years before He even started His ministry. He told Mary,"My hour has not yet come." John 2:4; He told His brothers "My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune." John 7:6; Even John recognized that Jesus was not arrested prematurely, "because His hour had not yet come" John 8:20

No one believed God’s promises and lived his or her life in light of those promises like Jesus did (Heb. 10:37–38).

Dwight - These verses are NOT referring to Jesus, either in Hebrews or Habakkuk, the book that they are quoted from. It's disingenuous for this man to say that these verses show that Jesus had faith, when they don't even refer to Jesus. The second half of verse 38 proves that: "And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him." Obviously, Jesus was NEVER going to shrink back. They are a quote of Habakkuk 2:4 saying that righteous men shall live by faith (in God). That is true of all men except Jesus. He didn't live by faith in God, because He was God.

Though his family doubted him, his disciples abandoned him, his friend denied him, and his fellow Jews rejected him, Jesus had faith to trust his Father, who would one day (at his resurrection) vindicate him (Isa. 50:6–9).

Dwight - Again, the author is making things up out of whole cloth. There is absolutely NO mention of Jesus having faith in God in these verses.

Christ no doubt loved the words of Psalm 16:1, “Preserve me, O God, for in you I take refuge.”

Dwight - This author is mistaken. These are David's words, not the words of Christ, which the author implies. Yes, there are Messianic references in verses 9-11, where David's words can be seen as the words of Jesus also, but verses 1-8 are strictly David speaking.

As one who had faith, he also necessarily had hope. He lived constantly with the hope of better things to come. His life was a life of humiliation, but he hoped for his exaltation (John 17).

Dwight - He didn't need to hope for what He already knew was going to happen. NOTHING in John 17 tells us that HE had faith or hope in God.

Unchangeable promises were made to Christ. As the faithful last Adam, Christ not only believed that he would one day be glorified in the presence of his Father at his right hand but also necessarily hoped for that day to arrive. If he did not hope for the promises made to him, then he surely was not truly human.

Dwight - Actually, the opposite is true. If He had hope and faith in God, then He was not truly God. Hope implies that something might happen, or that it might not happen. Jesus had total knowledge of the future and knew exactly what would happen to Him. He didn't need to hope in Himself - God.

Christ had a particular hope in his own resurrection (see Psalm 16).

Dwight - He told the Jews, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." He didn't need hope in His resurrection. It was a fact. He told them that He would raise Himself up in three days.

He knew he would die, but he also knew he would be raised (Mark 10:33–34). In the pain and agony of Golgotha, Christ never lost hope that he would be vindicated. He never lost hope that his temporal sufferings would pale in comparison to the glory that would be given to him (see Rom. 8:18).

Dwight - Those are Paul's words. EVEN Paul did NOT say that he HAD HOPE that his temporal sufferings would pale in comparison to the glory that would be given to him. It was simply a fact. It wasn't something he said he HOPED would happen. Why would this author attribute hope to Jesus, when the Bible does NOT?

The threefold cord of Christ’s life was completed by love. God is love, but Christ is love covered in flesh. Everything about Christ’s life falls under the category of love. He had love for his disciples: “Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end” (John 13:1). He had love for his enemies: “And Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do’” (Luke 23:34). He had love for the crowds of needy people (Mark 6:34–44). But he had a special love for his Father: “I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father” (John 14:31). Indeed, he explicitly connects his love toward the Father with keeping his Father’s commandments. Jesus could not have endured all that he endured, as the obedient Son, if he did not have love for his Father.

Dwight - Nobody is challenging this.

Christ had to have trust in his Father, hope in his Father’s promises, and love for his Father in order to bestow on us those graces that are first in him.

Dwight - No, God is able to bestow faith in God, hope in God, and trust in God on us, without needing those Himself.

We can say with great praise that we are “so thankful for the faith, hope, and love of Christ; no hope without them.”

Dwight - The Bible does not say that He had faith in Himself, or hope in Himself.

[dwight92070]

Wouldn't we expect Him to have perfect faith; He "emptied Himself" which would then presuppose a need for faith , Him being fully human? Without the need for faith how would He have been an example for us?

Jesus didn't need to repent. How is that an example for us? Should we follow His example and not repent? Pretty silly, right? Just because Jesus didn't need faith, doesn't mean He is not our example.

What about Paul? Wouldn't you think that he followed Jesus' example? Paul said, "Imitate Me just as I also imitate Christ." 1 Corinthians 11:1 Yet Paul spoke of his own faith at least two dozen times. How many times did Jesus speak of His own faith? ZERO So was Paul not following Christ's example? Of course He was.

If Jesus was and is God in the flesh, then there will be things true of Him, that are not true of us. If we had to follow Jesus' example 100%, we would have to be God in the flesh - and we are not.

Jesus didn't need faith, so why would He speak about His own faith? Actually He spoke about OUR need for faith close to 100 times! We do need faith. He didn't need to repent. We do need to repent.

[dizerner]

Hebrews tells us the Son had faith:

And again: "I will put My trust in Him." And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me." (Heb. 2:13 NKJ)


Jesus had to fulfill the Law and the Law required faith in God.