Does God foreknow future choices that we make?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:19 pm

I love debating philisophical issues as much as anyone but I'm with Frank on this one.

I don't see this as a phiisophical issue but one of reconciling what the bible says about God, JC. On the one hand it says God was sorry He created man because he wanted to sin all the time therefore God had to create the flood and almost wipe out His creation. It appears that this was something God decided based on how man conducted himself and was not preordained. On the other hand Jesus said every hair on our head is numbered and not a sparrow falls without God knowing it. Therefore it appears both omniscience and not knowing everything appear to be true which means that the only explanation i can think of that makes sense is that God must veil His omniscience sometimes.
I have no idea why of course.

Post by **_Anonymous** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:46 pm

Steve7150, I think I do see it as a philosophical issue if the question is "what is the nature of reality?," instead of "what is the nature of God's omniscience?" If the future isn't reality and so God knows everything in the past and present, but not the future, since...you know... it's not real, that's one thing. But if the future is reality and God knows all about that, it changes something about man's freewill. I, personally, would be comfortable with the first idea, if it wasn't for biblical prophecies and their fulfillments, or nonfulfillments, as in the case of Jonah.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:06 pm

Steve7150, I think I do see it as a philosophical issue if the question is "what is the nature of reality?," instead of "what is the nature of God's omniscience?" If the future isn't reality and so God knows everything in the past and present, but not the future, since...you know... it's not real, that's one thing. But if the future is reality and God knows all about that, it changes something about man's freewill. I, personally, would be comfortable with the first idea, if it wasn't for biblical prophecies and their fulfillments, or nonfulfillments, as in the case of Jonah.

Michelle, If God knows the future it changes our freewill? Would'nt it be like you knowing about who our past presidents were but the voters at the time of those elections had the freewill to elect any candidate. The fact you know now does'nt change their freewill at their time. Maybe our time is not God's time and perhaps we can have freewill in our time even though God knows the outcome because He is outside of time.
But the paradox in the bible is that it seems He sometimes knows the future and sometimes appears not to.

Post by **_Anonymous** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:59 pm

Steve7150, I was always taught that God exists outside of time, and I guess I can hang on to that. I'm not sure I can deal with sometimes knowing the future and sometimes not. Maybe sometimes appearing not to know might be more understandable.

If God knows the future in the same way that I know the past (well, except way, way better) it does remove freewill. Take your example of past presidents. Since it is known that Americans elected Herbert Hoover in 1928, those Americans can never elect anyone else that year, so they no longer have freewill. But God does seem to know stuff like that while it's still in the future. So, can we, with freewill, elect whomever we want in 2008?

(By the way - this has been bugging me for months, so I'm glad we are discussing it. The discussion is helping me focus. Thanks)

Post by **_Derek** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:50 pm

If God knows the future in the same way that I know the past (well, except way, way better) it does remove freewill.

I have never understood why this has to be the case.

Why can't God simply know in advance the outcome of our freewill choices? It doesn't change the fact that we made choices from our own freewill. At least as far as I can tell.

God bless,
Derek

Post by **_mattrose** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:45 am

I agree with Derek

It has always baffled me why some say knowing the future involves causing the future. Knowing someone WILL do something doesn't mean they MUST do it. They very well could have chosen something else and then God would know they WILL do that.

Post by **_brody_in_ga** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:24 am

mattrose wrote:I agree with Derek

It has always baffled me why some say knowing the future involves causing the future. Knowing someone WILL do something doesn't mean they MUST do it. They very well could have chosen something else and then God would know they WILL do that.

I agree with you and Derek.
Besides, I would never want to say the Father doesn't know something, especially after what God himself told Job.(Job 38-41)

Post by **_Frank** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:32 pm

Brody, I agree with you. I do not want to see what could happen in that case. I have gone through the Job syndrome once in my life as a Christian and hope I never have to again.

I know this, My Redeemer lives and I will stand with Him again on this earth. If He can save me and do that, He can do anything!

Post by **_Allyn** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:17 pm

The philosophizing about what God knows is interesting but what happens to our lives in the presence of His power is is remarkable. Look at the blind man who was blind from birth, sitting in his familiar place, begging. The disciples bring up some theological question about whether his blindness was caused by his own sin or by his parents' sin. They are not concerned about the blind man: what they are concerned about is the theology of his blindness. The disciples attempt to have a theological discussion, and Jesus cuts it short. He makes it very clear that what matters is glorifying God, helping blind men and women see.

Our discussion can tend to make us lose sight of the fact that God is a God of love and determination. He works in our lives and we are the proof of that. This is basically all I need to know about Him. I am not finding fault with this discussion but I am concerned when we limit God to our understanding. God knew this man was blind from birth and He knew Jesus would use him instrumentally to make a greater point. I praise God for knowing all I need in life.

Post by **_glow** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:30 pm

Allyn

I am so glad you brought this up. Michelle and I were private emailing about this very issue just a couple days ago. I know there is a place for teachers and the importance of learning scripture etc. And essentially there is nothing wrong with it. But we ( in our emails) were looking at what Christ did and how he spent His time as our example and it didn't seem to us He spent so much time in debating or philosophing etc. Vs doing.

Neither one of us claims to know all the answers or feels we are above the knowlege many of you have on this site. Speaking for myself I can say I still have alot to learn!

Seems like there is some kind of balance, a middle ground in just basic side by side living with folks in daily help vs all the time reading, deciphering and talking about it. . We all need to find this balance individually and under God.

I do not presume to know what that is for anybody else. I am having a hard enough time just getting it right between God and I... LOL.

But As I said. I like what you said Allyn and agree. Thanks for bringing it up.

Glow