Neither side is right

Post by **_DonO** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:50 pm

In Calvanism there is some truth as well as some error. Arminianism is the same way. Remember both are mans ideas not Gods word.I believe in some of Calvins tulip such as the total depravity of man and the security of the saints. I don't believe in a limited attonement nor irresistable grace.

Do I believe in the soverignity of God yes I do. Do I believe in the freewill of man? Yes I do. how do i recconscile the two? God knows the beginning to the end and backwards too. In other words God is all powerful and all knowing we are just little peions compaired to God. In other words he knew what we were going to do before we did it.

So I believe in evangelism because those who are going to apply their freewill choice still need to hear the gospel. In the arminian camp I believe in free will and the need for evangelism but I don't believe in their conditional eternal life. Or it depends on our performance to keep it it's not eternal life and Jesus died for nothing. Arminiasm is a works based religion so I disagree with them in these areas.

I came out of an Independant Fundamental Missionary Baptist background and have had to put up with the Schoefield bible for years but guess what he was just a man too. His notes are his opinion not Gods word. I am over that dogma and feel my spiritual journey is more balanced now.

Post by **_faydawg67117** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:57 pm

Someone corect me if I'm wrong but... I'm pretty sure Total Depravity and Irresistable Grace go hand in hand. In other words Total Depravity means that you can not make a freewill decision for Christ so God makes that decision for you and that decision you can not resist. So if I'm right I guess you don't fully believe in the doctrine of Total Depravity either. Correct? I used to be a calvinist for a little while and did learn alot from reformed christians. However, I believe the bible does not support calvinism.

Post by **_DonO** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:37 pm

faydog said Someone corect me if I'm wrong but... I'm pretty sure Total Depravity and Irresistable Grace go hand in hand. In other words Total Depravity means that you can not make a freewill decision for Christ so God makes that decision for you and that decision you can not resist.

It's been years since I studied Calvin so I may be wrong but my belief ot the total depravity is we are sinners with no good in us. We are away from God and have no ability on our own to meet Gods requirements. There is no possibility of us being good enough for God to accept us. I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. I am a sinner who God has had mercy on and found grace through the finished work of Jesus Christ who was my substitute on the cross. He was my Passover Lamb as well as the scapegoat to take care of my sin problem that I could never do. Did I deserve grace? No I didn't. Is it Gods will that all may be saved? I believe it is. Will all be saved? No they won't. Why? Because many refuse the gift of God. Is this predestination in Calvins view? No I don't think so because many choose of their own free will to say no to God. [/quote]

Post by **_Derek** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:45 pm

my belief ot the total depravity is we are sinners with no good in us.

I think Calvinists take it a bit further that this.

This doctrine is also called total inability which I think is more clear. They believe that the sinner not only cannot meet the requirements of God, (which both Calv. and non-Calv. believe), but that he is so dead in sin that he will not, and in fact cannot choose to follow God. That is why they would say that regeneration has to occur in the sinners heart before they believe.

God bless,
Derek

Post by **_SamIam** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:14 am

DonO,

I'm no expert, but I do not think you have expressed the Calvinist view of total depravity accurately.

It is my understanding that Calvinists teach that "total depravity" means that no human is capable of responding to God. It is not a matter of guilt for sins that I have commited, the problem is that I am incapable of even hearing God's call because of Adam's sin. The only one's capable of hearing God are those who God has chosen (chosen based on His purposes without any response of faith being considered) and they are irresistably drawn by His grace. It is not just a matter of not being able to meet God's requirements, the problem is we cannot say "yes" to God unless God has already decided we will irresistably say "yes" to Him.

As a refresher, the Five Points of Calvinism

T - Total Depravity
U - Unconditional Election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistable Grace
P - Perseverance of the Saints

I have heard of 4-point Calvinists, but I don't know which point they discard.

Post by **_Derek** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:15 am

I have heard of 4-point Calvinists, but I don't know which point they discard.

I think the first one to go is usually Limited Atonement. But the whole thing seems to fall apart to me if you take away any of the points.

Derek

Post by **_brody_in_ga** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:31 pm

Derek is right.

If any point of Calvinism can be proven wrong, the whole structure collapses.
Most that consider themselves 4-pointers, are commiting exegetical suicide. Calvinism is a take all or have none system.

One good point for Calvinist is, it is a very logical system. If you start with the first point. Other than that, I don't see it "holding much water."

Post by **_faydawg67117** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:13 pm

My post came out wrong. I know what total depravity means. But, on top of the plain meaning of being totally depraved or dead in our sins. The calvinist believes that we can not make a decision for Christ because of total depravity and thats when irresistable grace kicks in for the elect. I hope I explained my point a little better.

Brian

Post by **_Sean** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:19 am

DonO wrote:Arminiasm is a works based religion so I disagree with them in these areas.

I disagree. An Arminian believes that salvation is accessed by faith, not works (Rom 5:2). A calvinist believes salvation goes only to whom God predestined to believe.

An Arminian believes that since only those who have faith are saved, faith must endure. If your faith fails and you walk away from the truth then you are not saved, since those who do not have faith are not saved. So we are left debating wether the person who lost their faith was ever really saved in the first place. Kind of a moot point though.

Verses that can be used in support:

Romans 11: 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Post by **_Super Sola Scriptura** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:12 pm

In Calvanism there is some truth as well as some error. Arminianism is the same way. Remember both are mans ideas not Gods word.I believe in some of Calvins tulip such as the total depravity of man and the security of the saints. I don't believe in a limited attonement nor irresistable grace

.

I view this as a cop out. Arminianism is absolutely right, and Calvinism is totally wrong. Arminianism simply reflects true Biblical teaching, and if those who spoke about it would actually READ ARMINIUS, they would see that. He was a godly, thoroughly biblical man, meek and gentle to all. Very unlike calvin and many of his followers.

The Narrow Path Ministries

Neither side is right

Neither side is right

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