Hi there,
I introduced myself to this board in some previous posts. I'm an atheist and will likely stay this way for good no sense in trying to persuade this heathen... Very Happy
Alas, I have an interesting question to all of you here (most of whom are devout Christians I assume). I'm mostly seeking your answers rather than trying to engage in yet another atheist/Christian debate.
Consider this: Imagine that humans at some point are able to build machines that are intellectually and emotionally equals (or even superior) of humans i.e. we can't recognize their behaviour as in any way "automatic" or "preprogrammed". They pass the Turing test with flying colors, have motor capabilities comparable to us, etc. etc.
Now, imagine such machines start to claim having feelings, emotions and maybe even spirituality.
My question to you is this: how would you treat such machines? Would you treat them as deserving of equal existenece among humans? Would you grant them all human rights (provided they behave themselves)? Would you allow them in your church if such robots claimed to have spiritual needs? Has any Christian philosopher pondered the above questions?
Spiritual machines?
Spiritual machines?
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LOL! I think somebody has been watching too many Sci-Fi movies. 
It is really hard to answer those questions because in my mind those derive impossible realities. Now you may be in jest asking these questions, but if not I find it strange that one who bases their atheistic viewpoint on scientific evidence would even entertain the idea of a programmable machine developing a unique self aware consciousness.
It is really hard to answer those questions because in my mind those derive impossible realities. Now you may be in jest asking these questions, but if not I find it strange that one who bases their atheistic viewpoint on scientific evidence would even entertain the idea of a programmable machine developing a unique self aware consciousness.
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Luke 16:17 - It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
Micah,
Why does an atheistic viewpoint preclude the existence of conscious machines? I believe that consciousness arises from the complex patterns of neuron firings within our brains. I believe this will be ultimately replicated in nano scale structures. We will then have conscious acting machines (pls remember an objective test for consciousness is not possible) and it will happen sooner than you think
. My bet is circa 2040-2050. Thus I'm asking the above questions with a straight face.
I've thought about this myself. I decided that I'd be willing to grant those creatures full rights and responsibilities. Since there is no objective test of consciousness I will have to take their word for it and assume that their claims of being self aware are true. Alas, I don't believe in the supernatural so for me the question of a "soul" of a machine is non-existent. But I'm very interested in how people of religious faith would approach this topic.
So again, I'm not pulling anyone's leg, just courting your opinions.
Why does an atheistic viewpoint preclude the existence of conscious machines? I believe that consciousness arises from the complex patterns of neuron firings within our brains. I believe this will be ultimately replicated in nano scale structures. We will then have conscious acting machines (pls remember an objective test for consciousness is not possible) and it will happen sooner than you think
. My bet is circa 2040-2050. Thus I'm asking the above questions with a straight face. I've thought about this myself. I decided that I'd be willing to grant those creatures full rights and responsibilities. Since there is no objective test of consciousness I will have to take their word for it and assume that their claims of being self aware are true. Alas, I don't believe in the supernatural so for me the question of a "soul" of a machine is non-existent. But I'm very interested in how people of religious faith would approach this topic.
So again, I'm not pulling anyone's leg, just courting your opinions.
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_SoaringEagle
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Did you just finish watching IROBOT, starring Will Smith?
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Never seen that movie... actually never read Asimov's book either. Of course this stuff has been subject of movies before. Bladerunner comes to mind first and foremost. I'd rather hear if anyone here ever thought about those issues for real though.
I should disclose however, that I work in AI research.
I should disclose however, that I work in AI research.
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Atheist,
I guess I have to first ask, How are you defining consciousness? Is it just the mere ability to choose the right road versus the left road or is it more complex than that?
I guess I have to first ask, How are you defining consciousness? Is it just the mere ability to choose the right road versus the left road or is it more complex than that?
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Luke 16:17 - It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
Re: Spiritual machines?
To answer your question, I would say that we do have the capabilities to construct such beings and I back that up by scripture in genesis.atheist wrote:
Consider this: Imagine that humans at some point are able to build machines that are intellectually and emotionally equals (or even superior) of humans i.e. we can't recognize their behaviour as in any way "automatic" or "preprogrammed". They pass the Turing test with flying colors, have motor capabilities comparable to us, etc. etc.
Now, imagine such machines start to claim having feelings, emotions and maybe even spirituality.
My question to you is this: how would you treat such machines? Would you treat them as deserving of equal existenece among humans? Would you grant them all human rights (provided they behave themselves)? Would you allow them in your church if such robots claimed to have spiritual needs? Has any Christian philosopher pondered the above questions?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
We are created in Gods image including His creative ability.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Again God shows we can do anything we can imagine.
As far as granting them equal rights in society would be dependent on what we created and if our Goal is to build relationships with our creation.
Yet at the same time that relationship would be dependent on our charateristics as we assuredly wouldn't build a relationship with one of our creations that choose to go against our moral values. Kind of sounds like what God is trying to do with His creation (US), building a relationship with His creation.
I also should say I work in a bio-research firm
Jim
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My guess is that "Atheist" has been studying philosophy. Such a question has often emerged in philosophy-of-mind classes at universities.
If such a robot as "Atheist" describes could be constructed, this would support the philosophical view that mind function is in reality identical with brain function.
This view is also consistent with determinism, the view that all events which have occurred could not have been otherwise, due to prior causes. Even brain functions could not have been otherwise, since they were caused by prior causes. This view may give its proponents a subjective feeling of security. But it also has ethical implications. How can you hold anyone responsible for acts which he committed when he could not have done otherwise?
To get at the "meat" of the question which "Atheist" posed, we may rephrase it as follows:
Are human beings in reality sophisticated robots? --- "created", of course, by evolutonary processes (or perhaps by God, if you prefer).
My answer is "no". Creating a robot with self-awareness is impossible in principle. However, creating a robot with the appearance of self-awareness is possible in principle. The robot may behave as if "in pain" when touched by a hot object, etc.
Some say, "If the robot behaves exactly as a human would in any way, what's the difference". To that I ask, to what extent would a robot have to be developed before "awareness" could be assigned. How do you know whether it is aware, or has merely been programmed to simulate awareness?
Your awareness of the world and of self is not the result of brain function alone. One may ask, "What more can there be? If you have no brain function you are dead!" True. But our brains are more than the sum of its components. It's a great mystery, but somewhere in our brains is the "metaphysical self" which transcends the physical brain. I am not talking about the Platonic "soul" which is supposed to be able to inhabit the body and transmigrate into some other body after death. Rather this "self" is so integrated with the brain as to be inseparable. Man can never impart such a self to a robot.
Some of us Christians believe that God did impart such a self to the human body He created, when He breathed into him the "breath of life" and Adam became a "living self".
If such a robot as "Atheist" describes could be constructed, this would support the philosophical view that mind function is in reality identical with brain function.
This view is also consistent with determinism, the view that all events which have occurred could not have been otherwise, due to prior causes. Even brain functions could not have been otherwise, since they were caused by prior causes. This view may give its proponents a subjective feeling of security. But it also has ethical implications. How can you hold anyone responsible for acts which he committed when he could not have done otherwise?
To get at the "meat" of the question which "Atheist" posed, we may rephrase it as follows:
Are human beings in reality sophisticated robots? --- "created", of course, by evolutonary processes (or perhaps by God, if you prefer).
My answer is "no". Creating a robot with self-awareness is impossible in principle. However, creating a robot with the appearance of self-awareness is possible in principle. The robot may behave as if "in pain" when touched by a hot object, etc.
Some say, "If the robot behaves exactly as a human would in any way, what's the difference". To that I ask, to what extent would a robot have to be developed before "awareness" could be assigned. How do you know whether it is aware, or has merely been programmed to simulate awareness?
Your awareness of the world and of self is not the result of brain function alone. One may ask, "What more can there be? If you have no brain function you are dead!" True. But our brains are more than the sum of its components. It's a great mystery, but somewhere in our brains is the "metaphysical self" which transcends the physical brain. I am not talking about the Platonic "soul" which is supposed to be able to inhabit the body and transmigrate into some other body after death. Rather this "self" is so integrated with the brain as to be inseparable. Man can never impart such a self to a robot.
Some of us Christians believe that God did impart such a self to the human body He created, when He breathed into him the "breath of life" and Adam became a "living self".
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_Royal Oddball 2:9
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It seems to me the salvation of Jesus Christ is only extended to the Adamic race. I believe we are "hardwired" to have spiritual needs because of who our creator is.
If machines all of a sudden began feeling spiritual needs, there's no need to assume their needs would involve the desire for a divine savior, because there's also no need to assume that sin would be part of their nature (if it were, you'd need to specify), or that acts Christian consider immoral (such as fornication) would be destructive for them seeing as how they're machines and we're not. (Could a machine contract STDs? Would dismantling or reprogramming a machine be equivalent to murder?)
I would say any"spiritual needs" would be a different sort than those experienced by (majority of) the Adamic race, in which case, they'd be free to form their own "religion." But I doubt God would consider His creation to be of equivalent value to "our" creation because, after all, God makes no provision in His word for grandsons.
If machines all of a sudden began feeling spiritual needs, there's no need to assume their needs would involve the desire for a divine savior, because there's also no need to assume that sin would be part of their nature (if it were, you'd need to specify), or that acts Christian consider immoral (such as fornication) would be destructive for them seeing as how they're machines and we're not. (Could a machine contract STDs? Would dismantling or reprogramming a machine be equivalent to murder?)
I would say any"spiritual needs" would be a different sort than those experienced by (majority of) the Adamic race, in which case, they'd be free to form their own "religion." But I doubt God would consider His creation to be of equivalent value to "our" creation because, after all, God makes no provision in His word for grandsons.
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But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. I Peter 2:9
... or nieces and nephews for that matter. good one RO!
the bigger problem, in my view will be when we are able to "manufacture" actual humans, through cloning or some other means. will they have a "soul" or a "self" as Paidon calls it, etc. will they have a sin nature. are they really humans at all.
the bigger problem, in my view will be when we are able to "manufacture" actual humans, through cloning or some other means. will they have a "soul" or a "self" as Paidon calls it, etc. will they have a sin nature. are they really humans at all.
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)