Storing up treasures- MT 6:19, 20

[Guest]

A $9.50 steak would be permissable, but a $10 steak just crosses the line.

steve responds to the "ant" verse by indicating that the Mr. Ant is not just storing up for itself, but also the whole colony. but the key to that point is that all the other ants are also storing up for Mr. Ant. i may be mistaken, but i dont think anyone else is saving up for me. if i was confident that they were, then well, i guess i'd be more confident.

i am in agreement with the "not storing up" in principle-- the problem, as you indicated, is where that line must be drawn. to me, saving for older age and buying insurance to protect from financial disaster is not storing up riches.

[_atheist]

The truth is my friends that you're treating the situation with the presupposition that it's your destination to live a life of an American suburbanite and read your Bible and condemn homosexuals and all else will be fine.

The truth is however, that the teachings of Jesus imply giving up your earlthly lifestyle comforts in order to obey his words. It takes a lot more effort to follow teachings of a prophet as radical as Jesus than a trip with the kids to a Sunday school. Just recall ALL those cases where Jesus condemned and criticized enriching oneself, profiteering, hanging on to life of affluence etc. He may have not stated his position on contraception but as far as money goes, boy he made it darn clear what his vision of a good Christian was. The New Testament is full of verses that condemn rich people.

Guess, what. All of you know that compared to the world average even the poorest of you here is a billionare!

Deep inside all of you know that a car and a McMansion filled with Nintendo toys would not be Jesus' idea of true Christian conduct especially in a world where 50% of the world population can barely afford enough food to keep their kids alive and another 20% simply cannot do even that!

So stop beating about the bush. Holding on to an American Dream and following Christianity IS mutually exclusive and you know it! It is obvious to me and I don't even believe Jesus was divine.

I'm not a Christian and even though I lead a modest life it still weighs on my conscience that I'm not doing enough to help the poor in this world even though I have no spiritual "incentive" to go out and help. But I have seen such gut wrenching poverty that you have no clue about.

You see, I grew up in a very poor country and know for a fact that for 99.9% of Americans poverty does not exist. Even if you can only afford to ride a bus to work, live in a 400sqft apartment and eat out once a year, you're rich! When I was a kid, in my home country, having an orange was a Christmas treat ONCE A YEAR!

[_Mort_Coyle]

Atheist, you bring up some good points; some of which I agree with. However, you err in at least two primary areas:

1) You clearly don't know the Bible well enough, or have a sufficient grasp of Biblical hermeneutics, to be believable when you make assertions about what the Bible teaches.

2) You don't know how I or the other people on this forum live. You are projecting your assumptions upon us.

My assumption about you is this: Like many who call themselves "atheist", you have been hurt, frustrated and angered by people or systems that call themself Christian. My guess is that you have been repulsed by some form of Christian fundamentalism, which you think is what Christianity in general is like. Your hurt, frustration and anger is most likely not without good cause. Most of us on this forum can probably empathize with your feelings and experiences. The difference is that you've chosen to express your hurt, frustration and anger by shaking your fist at God and saying "I don't believe in you!" and by haranguing those who do believe.

I may be off the mark, but as one who used to identify himself as an atheist, your tone sounds achingly familiar.

It would be great to be able to honestly dialog about this without trying to score points and cast aspersions. So, how about it? Tell us your story.

[Guest]

Hello All


If I did not provide monies for myself through a job or inheritance etc. But waited on the generosity of others to provide a roof over my head, food in my stomach etc. Doesn't that make me like a child who is totally relient on his or her parents?I am still living on milk not meat?

I know God is called our father so that may fit as if we just rely on others through our "father" whos providing for us through the generosity of others.. But there are also scriptures on being slothful and also the disciple being taught if they don't work, they don't eat. We are suppose to be good stewards also etc. So I personally don't see if we don't act like what I would call a mature person to be wise in feeding ourselves, housing ourselves through work etc. and sharing excess with others that DO try to work etc but in their enviroment just are not able to make it.We put a un nesssary burden on others to take care of us.

I don't have health insurance like many and I know how much any kind of medical care costs me. If I needed a life sustaining drug, should I then go without food for it, or go without it and die.? When I worked in a hospital in the past we had many cases of parents that did not believe in blood tranfusions and without them the child would die.Should they be left to die?

Should I than say, well I didnt have the food, I didn't have the money for meds nor did some one else who DOES work for a wage provide it for me?So" I" should just die than and says it was Gods will? If that happened with my children and I couldn't feed them nor recieved help, should I than say it is Gods will they die?

I lean on Gods grace alot in my life and believe ultimately he helps provide things for me in all ways. But I believe I am called to do my part. If I don't work, I don't eat. If I squander money, I am burying it so why should the Lord provide me with more. There seems to be a middle road in here some where? Just my thoughts

Glow

[_atheist]

Mort_Coyle
I was never "hurt" or even "angered" by Christians. I gave up my beliefs because... I simply found the Biblical stories not believable. It was my intelectual divagations and not any pent up anger that made me abandon faith.

But there is a sore point I have with some Christians and you discovered it in this thread. I am talking about those lame-ass attempts at trying to reconcile New Testament's clear teachings regarding the material world with the opulence of the American lifestyle.

I am peeved at Americans who think of themselves as "poor" or even "modest" when in fact they have sooo much material wealth. It is what, the second richest country in the world PER CAPITA? And a country that also donates the smallest slice of its GDP to the third world aid! And these people overwhelmingly claim to follow New Testament's teachings? C'mon if that is not hipocrisy then I don't know what is.

Finally, I think Jesus did not advocate relying on others for suport as some said earlier. So taking that stance is a strawman argument. Jesus wanted you to work and earn wages... and to give away all of your earnings beyond the bare necessities to the poor of this world. Anything that falls short of that is clearly in violation of his teachings. It's that simple, people.

[Guest]

aetheist


I think as Americans we are really oblivious to the true state of the world econonically.We can see it on tv, travel to other counties, work as missionaries and be among it and witness it, but as Americans ( and I think there are other countries as well as the U.S. included here) We just don't understand it. I have tried, I have tried to help. But honestly I fall very short . I know I do and I ask for Gods grace and forgiveness for my lack of insight and understanding. Glow

[Guest]

Jesus was very unambiguous when it came to the earthly posessions. Remember the "easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle" phrase? I don't think Jesus left you guys much room for a debate here. Give up your earthly posessions or your odds of salvation are erm... slightly worse than that of a camel trying to pass through an eye of a needle

Yet another example of someone who steps up to the plate with an unwarranted method of interperetation - extreme literalism. Such a method will always bring you to a wack conclusion, yes, a type of conclusion that is divorced from the original intent of what was said-- by in this case, Jesus, and what was written down by the Evangelists.

Such an method will make many texts appear ambiguous.

[_Mort_Coyle]

I was never "hurt" or even "angered" by Christians.

In that case I am mistaken. I've had the opportunity to dialog with many atheists and typically their atheism springs from a root of bitterness and hurt rather than objectivism. A well-known case in point is Brian Flemming who made that pathetic film "The God Who Wasn't There".

Something else that gives one the impression that you might have had a fundamentalist background is the way that your interpretations of scripture have the same narrow simplicity and wooden literalism.

On the subject of the "opulence of the American lifestyle", I think there is something to be said there. Ronald Sider tackled this issue quite adeptly in his book "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084991 ... e&n=283155

The observation that a lot of Western Christians fall short in their attitudes and treatment of the poor is not something we weren't aware of. I think there are a lot of factors that influence this including a lack of emphasis on social justice on the part of many Bible teachers and a lack of information about practical ways of helping the poor. I agonize about the situation in Darfur, for example, but don't know what I can do about it.

On the other side of the argument, American "opulence" isn't always what it seems. I once had a man from Uganda over to my home and he was asking me questions about life in America. He asked me how much money I made per month, and when I told him he exclaimed, "You're rich!" I then brought out my checkbook and showed him how much I had to pay each month for rent, electricity, phone, water, etc. After doing the math and seeing where my money actually went, he said, "You are not so rich afterall."

[Guest]

Mort, what you said made me think about American money. Here, our dollars do not go nearly as far as they do in third-world countries. For instance, in a third-world country I can feed, clothe, shelter and educate one child for less than $20 a month.

Meanwhile, taxes and regulations make the same thing more expensive in this country. Not trying to make excuses . . . I'm always looking at ways I can live more simply.

[Guest]

TK,

Nah

Stop kiddinng yourself buddy. Jesus was very unambiguous when it came to the earthly posessions. Remember the "easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle" phrase? I don't think Jesus left you guys much room for a debate here. Give up your earthly posessions or your odds of salvation are erm... slightly worse than that of a camel trying to pass through an eye of a needle

Your local heathen at your service here, always here to help you understand those completely unambiguous NT passages

Atheist, a few sentences later, after the disciples expressed surprise at what Jesus had said and asked, "Who then can be saved," Jesus said, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." But you don't believe there is a god, so that part doesn't mean anything, right? Maybe, just maybe, you are not the best person to interpret scripture for us.