Ask an atheist—but don't expect any straight answers!

_atheist
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Post by _atheist » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:35 pm

steve7510,
I lean towards the idea that much of the genetic complexity is apparent ie. appears more complex because we don't fully understand it yet. As for it being a "random" process, that's just not correct. The evolution theory clearly points to selection that promotes survival. That's hardly "random" as you put it. Now there is a small degree of random mutaion within each passing of genome but the overall process if far from random. However, we can debate this forever. I see evolution as logical you see it as impossible. Time will tell if I was right or not and I didn't come here to "unconvert" anyone.... so for now we should simply agree to disagree.
As for Islam the sad fact is that much of the Quran does encourage violence and we are seeing the fruit of it's teachings.
Can that same not be said about much of the Old Testament?
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:52 pm

As for Islam the sad fact is that much of the Quran does encourage violence and we are seeing the fruit of it's teachings.


Can that same not be said about much of the Old Testament?


Hi A, Yes you're right and in fact that's where Muhammed got his ideas about a holy war. The problem is that Muhammed read it or had it read to him out of context. The OT needs to be understood in it's context and to put it in a nutshell God decreed that he would use the jewish nation as his chosen instrument for that age. And in that age the jewish nation had to be preserved and had to reach the promised land so Christ could come later and save men from their sins.
So the violence had a purpose and was limited and only happened after God waited and was long suffering and patient.
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_atheist
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Post by _atheist » Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:16 pm

STEVE7150,
I heard Muslim apologists give the exact same excuse for the violence in Q'ran as you did for the Old Testament. They also tell me that Q'ranic violence is all in historical context and it made sense then but it doesn't now. As an atheist I don't buy it, but want you to know that they use very similar excuses for barbaric stuff in Q'ran as you did for the OT. For a non-believer it sounds a bit lame. The violence is there (in both OT and Q'ran) and you can see how hard apologists have to work to logically justify it.
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_Christopher
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Post by _Christopher » Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:18 am

Hi "Atheist",

Sorry this response is late in coming, but my time limitations barely allow me to read the volume of discussions here let alone reply to them.

You wrote:
Christopher,

First I reject that bin Laden (or Bush for that matter) are right just because they have strong faith/thoughts on issues.


I think you may have missed my point here. I'm not saying they are right because they have "strong faith/thoughts", I'm not even saying that they are right or wrong at all. I'm saying that just because YOU think they're wrong doesn't make it so. Pragmatism and expedience do not define truth. I'm challenging your premise, not necessarily your conclusion.

you wrote:
To me, religious beliefs have little evidencial basis so I don't seriously entertain the possibility of them being "right' in th objective sense ie having the correct knowledge of the Universe. The evidence is stacked up against them.
Thank you for your opinion, which I would point out again, is just as subjective as the "religious beliefs" you reject (a matter of belief -- "faith" if you will). I come to the opposite conclusions with the same evidence.

You wrote:
As far as what is "random" and what is "free will" that is a philosphical argument that is overplayed. Sure, there is a built in raondomness of the universe (based on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle) yet it is clear that at the macro level, our brains are able to distinguish harm from good and make judgement of the consequences of our actions. I believe in the "free will" and I believe it is a naturally ocurring phenomenon. Just because we're not supernatural does not mean we're mechanical clockworks. Our brains are able to formulate thoughts about the world we live in and act upon those thoughts.
I don't think you will likely convince me that rational and abstract thoughts of "infinity and beyond" can possibly be born out of random chaos no matter how much time you throw at it. It's an absurdity IMO. "Free will" (or any will) requires self-awareness. And I don't think it's possible that random chemicals evolving into living creatures simply "woke up" and realized they were "somebody" and needed to get to work building rocket ships. That hurtle is infinitely higher to me than just accepting the more logical and simple conclusion of intelligent design.

Quote:
One thought is as valid and rational as another because they're not rational at all...just accidental.


How do you arrive at this conclusion? Just because we are all able to formulate random thoughts and create stories, does not mean they are all true. There is an objective world governed by objective laws of physics which control the direction of the universe. Everyone is entitled to their own worldview but they are not entiltled to harm people in the name of that worldview. You seem to have a distorted understanding of a naturalistic philosophy.
This is not my conclusion. I'm trying to point out the logical conclusion of naturalism...which I reject. Random chaos begets more of the same IMO. You are of course entitled to believe otherwise.

The ultimate point I'm getting at is that this is merely a game of "I believe, you believe". I believe the eye witness testimonies of apostles. You believe (it would seem) the testimonies of naturalistic philosophers and theorists. I think this is a blind spot for many "atheists" because it is often mistaken to be an issue of rational thought versus "irrational" faith.

The fact is, the existence of the supernatural cannot be empirically proven or disproven in the natural because it transcends it. Christianity doesn't claim to be able to and God never asked us to.

Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
NKJV


Not a blind faith, but a faith in the evidence. There's plenty of solid evidence of God out there in even the most cursory examination of creation to make a good case for faith. The same kind of faith you have in the evidence that convinces you of the contrary.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to respond and please forgive me if I'm not able to respond to your impending answer in a timely manner.
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"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32

_atheist
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Post by _atheist » Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:08 am

Chris,
To be honest, I'm no longer sure what point you're trying to make. I think it has something to do with the relativism and determinism (or non-determinism?) of the universe according to the atheistic worldview.

I'll try to lay out the principles as I see them in hopes that somewhere along the way I might answer some of your questions.

The universe is finite in all dimensions. The Big Bang gve rise to the universe and any questions about what happened BEFORE make no sense as it makes no sense to ask what lies north of the North Pole. The dimension of time did not exist prior to the Big Bang and thus questions of "before" are meaningless. Thus I preoccupy myself with the question of the origin of Big Bang as much as I preoccupy myself with the "North Pole" question.

According to my worldview (backed by the evidence of Quantum Mechanics) the universe is not inherently deterministic. It is purely material (ie everything that exists is at least in principle measurable) and indeterministic at the atomic level (aka god plays dice with the universe) as outlined through Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. And no, I don't know what "causes" the wavefunction to collapse but I don't believe it is a "soul" or a disembodied mind.

I believe (based on much research summarized in many books on biogenesis) that life on earth arose billions of years ago through environmental factors acting upon the primoridal soup of chemicals. Yes, it took a lot of time and we don't know all the steps but we also don't know all the steps of a "desert rose" formation yet it's not "Intelligently Designed" but rather weathered by interesting wind/temperature patterns. We can't produce a living cell in a petri dish yet but science has not closed the book on that. Give it time and I am confident that such feat will be accomplished eventurally.

I am positive that once early simple life forms sprouted on earth the early diversification through random genetic mutations gave rise to inter spiecies competition for resources. this competition for resources pushed those microbes to evolve to more and more sophisticated forms until today when we see the enormous diversity of life on this planet.

The human brain evolved after the mammalian dominance took hold and as homonoids (which were quite inferior physically) developed larger and larger neocortex which allowed them to better model their world and helped them pursue increasingly more complex analyses and predictions. At the same time the evolutionary pressure pushed the human beings toward cooperative behaviour as this was the best tactic that humanoid spiecies had against other, stronger predators. This long process led to the evolution of the clever and cooperative (though still capable of ruthless competition and selfish desire) Homo Sapiens that we are today.

The sense of "ethical" vs "unethical" is wired into the Human brain because this is what has helped us survive on earth for the past several million years. While there is no ultimate cosmic "right" or "wrong" there is one in the context of the human society. The definition of "ethical" in this scheme is all that advances the human society and helps us humans lead easier, longer, healthier and safer lives. What is "unethical" in this scheme is all that which destroys human life, incites violence between human tribes (aka nations) and destroys the principle of cooperative collaboration (theft etc).

What I THINK you posit is that such an ethics code is merely an illusion of a fallible human brain if it's not backed by a supernatural Creator. I can't agree with such a position at all. We have more than just "opinion" to go on here. For a start, we have much empirical evidence. We can observe that societies which permit murder, theft, rape or torture to go unpunished either disintegrate rapidly or at best keep barely functioning (usually with substantial foreign aid only) until the spiral towards collapse plunges them into chaos eventually. Thus we do have a wealth of experience (both positive and negative) of what it takes to build a successful human society. Based on that we can draw a lot of inspiration as to what is "right" or "wrong", what is to be labeled ethical and what is unethical. And no, there are not always cut and dried answers within this worldview. A lot of it is tentative and will evolve as we learn more about ourselves but we already have a wealth of past experience to start with. I don't know why this is so hard for you and others here to understand (or perhaps rather accept and acknowledge). I see this meme "There is no ethics without God" appear here all the time but it is completely without basis to anyone but the most rabid fundamentalist.

I'll state my conclusion again. A divine being is NOT required for a succesful code of ethics to exist among humans. We have the "generous" gene coupled with the societal experience of countless previous generations of humans upon which we can build a pretty decent set of secular ethics. We already do this. We call it the Law. The Constitution The judicial governance. And it works most of the time.

<comic_relief>This might come as a shock to you but I do not consider eating shellfish unethical under this secular code of ethics of mine :D </comic_relief>
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_SoaringEagle
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a few questions

Post by _SoaringEagle » Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:37 am

1. Does absolute truth exist?
a) Yes
b) No
c) I don’t know

2. Does absolute moral right and wrong exist?
a) Yes
b) No
c) I don’t know
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:09 am

I heard Muslim apologists give the exact same excuse for the violence in Q'ran as you did for the Old Testament. They also tell me that Q'ranic violence is all in historical context and it made sense then but it doesn't now. As an atheist I don't buy it, but want you to know that they use very similar excuses for barbaric stuff in Q'ran as you did for the OT. For a non-believer it sounds a bit lame. The violence is there (in both OT and Q'ran) and you can see how hard apologists have to work to logically justify it

The violence in the Quran is in another universe and does'nt remotely compare to the OT . You need not buy it just look around you today. Tell the islamic terrorists today "hey guys did'nt you know it was historical context not for today." The minute Isalm was born they tried to conquer the world by the sword and now they use different weapons.
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Post by _SoaringEagle » Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:34 pm

The request for evidence for God.
I now add my line of evidence for a supernatural Creator from higher biological functions.

Higher Biological Functions

I will show that it is irrational to believe that irreducibly complex higher biological functions [BA10-8] like for example, vision, flight, echolocation, and even a giraffe’s neck, could arise by chance. Science makes awesome progress in describing how things work. The entire cosmos, and especially biological life, is much more complex than what mankind had previously imagined. Remember the honeymoon period of atheism? As long as atheists still agree that complex functioning systems cannot appear by chance in one single step, then the more complexity science discovers, the more difficult it becomes to fathom a chance explanation for origins.

Vision: Consider vision systems, and the supposedly primitive brains with which evolutionists think eyesight evolved. Science has taught us that vision systems are wildly more complex than unscientific men may have imagined. For example, when photons strike the rods and cones in our eyeballs, the images they illuminate are communicated to our brains using symbols that do not correspond to the image itself. Look at my picture to the left of this post (called an Avatar). Yes… that one, showing me in a suit and tie. Now, imagine that a primitive creature, say a mosquito, can use vision to increase his chances of survival, since it would help if he bites my neck rather than my shirt. Functioning vision systems provide extraordinary survival benefits to organisms. But that handsome picture of me (I’m bragging about the picture quality, not my looks), is not nearly as instructive (or as good looking) if you look at the actual data in the .GIF (Graphics Interchange Format) file that contains that picture. Most readers can right-click on the photo and then from the shortcut menu that pops up, select “Save Picture As…” and save it to your desktop as Bob.txt. Then, most readers can right-click on that file and open it with a text editor like Microsoft Notepad. By doing this, you can see what that picture data looks like to a word processing program like Notepad. That rubbish looks much more like what a bug would see when trying to decipher the information coming to his brain as a visual image. Here’s what I look like when encoded as a stream of data:

ÿØÿà!1AQq"2 a
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_Frank
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Post by _Frank » Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:52 pm

Hi atheist, I would like to ask this question and maybe someone has before and I missed it. You Said
Hi there,
I have been an atheist for 16 years (and Christian prior to that).
How could you Have been a Christian before? What is a Christian as far as you are concerned? If you could stick to these two main questions then we won't get side tracked. To me this is very important.
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:17 pm

Remember "Gott mit Uns"?
And now for a bit of comic relief.

My brother-in-law was a soldier in WW2. He heard this phrase repeated several times by the Nazis during a time when there was proximate combat. Finally, one of the allies shouted, "So what! We got mittens, too!"
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Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

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