"The Open View of God" or "Open Theis

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:36 pm

I started thinking about this when i heard the famous Steve and Reggie debate and honestly the question about why God tested Adam if He knew what the outcome would be. I've just assummed the classical view of God knowing everything that will occur in the future as simply a theology that is set in stone. The Calvinist believes God not only knows the future but causes it to come about and the classical view is that God does'nt cause it but He knows it.
There are many many times in scripture where God tests people or nations "to know" something about them and it's always assumed that God knew already but He is speaking in a way for us to understand or that the testing is for the recipient's benefit. Because we have a paradigm in advance that God knows the future we don't consider the possibility that the words actually may be literal.
After all if Jesus could know that Peter would deny him three times and then the cock would crow how could it be possible that God does'nt know every detail of the future? So i thought in these other verses where God seemed surprised or disappointed by certain outcomes as examples of God veiling himself for some reason. But then it occurred to me that maybe it's possible that certain specific details of the future can't be known but that God can declare prophecies that will come about by stepping into our world and causing these events to happen. God could have caused three different people to question Peter and God knew how Peter would react and then God could have caused the cock to crow. No big deal for God to do is it? I think that this view may be the only way to reconcile ALL of the scriptures about God.
So Calvinism teaches that God knows everything about the future because HE preordains it to happen, because they look at some scriptures but they ignore other scriptures that plainly show God NOT KNOWING. The logical answer is that God knows when He causes something to happen BUT when HE does'nt cause the event to happen He may not know for sure.
"The former things i declared long ago, they went out from my mouth AND I MADE THEM KNOWN. then suddenly , I DID THEM AND THEY CAME TO PASS." Isaiah 48.3
"My purpose shall stand , and I WILL FULFILL MY INTENTION." Isa 46.10

Frankly i think it's a lot more interesting if God does'nt know every detail of the future yet knowing He can intervene at anytime for any reason including to answer our prayers.
I'll be back to give examples from scripture for the open view of God.

Post by **_TK** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:35 pm

Why is it so important that we know exactly how God works? don't get me wrong-- i enjoy reading all the deep posts on these forums. my wife thinks I am a tad strange for liking to read them. but i dont think the samaritan woman at the well knew anything about deep theology.. but she got it.. the simple gospel, as set forth by Jesus. i think that all attempts to explain exactly how God does things, or whether He knows things in advance, or whether He causes things and how this can be squared with free will etc etc is rather silly on our part. He is GOD! He is OTHER! we cant ever comprehend Him. we can know Him, to the extent He wishes to reveal Himself, but do we really want to lose all of the mystery? i dont think we will ever know God completely, even in heaven. we will know more, but not everything. i guess it's interesting and fun to discuss ultra deep theology, but what good does it do us? will it help us to be more Christ-like? believe me, i'm asking this for myself as well. i was listening to steve's lecture today on christian character-- the part about the Word. he made the excellent point that the deep pursuit of theological things can get in the way of our simply following after Jesus. this is also a common theme in oswald chamber's devotions.. that the focus should not be on our own personal theological "education" but rather doing what Jesus tells us to do.

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. (I Cor. 2:1-3)

i'm interested in your thoughts!

TK

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:23 pm

TK,

Excellent! So much speculation!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:05 am

he made the excellent point that the deep pursuit of theological things can get in the way of our simply following after Jesus. this is also a common theme in oswald chamber's devotions.. that the focus should not be on our own personal theological "education" but rather doing what Jesus tells us to do.

Hi TK, You're right that it could interfere with our relationship with Christ IF we make an idol out of theology. Like if Gene Cook actually said something like if you're not a Calvinist you're not a Christian, that would be almost like idolatry.
However i think that anyone who loves the truth would be interested in this topic and i don't think it's so deep that it's beyond our ability to understand nor do i think it's speculation. Do Calvinists consider their understanding that God micromanages everything in advance to be speculation , then why would this be?

In the Garden of Gethsemane , Jesus "threw himself on the ground and prayed " My Father , IF it is possible ,let this cup pass from me" Matt 26.39
This prayer reveals that in the mind of Jesus there was a possibility that another course of action may have possible which seems to indicate that the future is to some extent open, of course entirely at God's descretion.
Why should'nt these words of Jesus's be taken at face value, why does almost everyone assume that the words are'nt literal but possibly to teach us something.
Not taking these words at face value but reading something into them that isn't there may be where the speculation lye's.

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:10 am

hi steve.. believe me i am not attempting to squelch discussion nor am i saying that we shouldnt strive to know the truth-- "deep call to deep" after all. my post was simply as a reminder.. to myself and possibly others, not to get distracted from doing the "simpler" things. i guess i am saying this because i am under some conviction about not being a more "practical christian." i see a lot of christians around me who probably know little theology (and probably dont care to) but do a lot more practical things than I do. what does God prefer? i think the answer is obvious.

now regarding Jesus in Gethsemane, I agree with you that we should take his prayer at face value (side note-- how do we know this is what he prayed, if the disciples were sleeping?) i think Jesus legitimately believed that there MIGHT be another option but at the same time was not overly confident that there was. if there wasnt the potential that there was another option, then it would require us to conclude that Jesus was mistaken about the nature of the Father, which, in my mind, places us on very shaky ground.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:50 am

i see a lot of christians around me who probably know little theology (and probably dont care to) but do a lot more practical things than I do. what does God prefer? i think the answer is obvious.

Hi TK, I agree that following Christ is the most important aspect of Christianity. But God did give us the whole bible and Jesus did say "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of the mouth of God."
As you may have noticed there is a long thread on Calvinism/Arminism but nothing said about "Open Theism" so i think it deserves a look.

It's clear from the bible that God had a life plan for many people like Jeremiah,Cyrus,Josiah and Paul before they were born but was their life plan set in stone?
As Paul suggested to King Agrippa he could have chosen to be "disobedient to the heavenly vision" by which he was called (Acts 26.19) suggesting God's call on a person is not a gurantee that the person will obey because he is a free agent. Luke 7.30 says "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves."
There are a collection of children's stories called "Choose Your Own Adventure" where the readers can choose their own story by choosing between alternatives yet within the author's structure. I think "Open Theism" is similar to this.
I'll be back.

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:22 am

Learning the truth about theological topics is exceedingly relevant to our walk with the Lord. For example:

1. If we believe that God ordained every event that occurs to happen, then we believe in a God that is the author of evil. Also, no one can be held responsible for his actions because they have been planned long ago.

2. If we believe that God will consign over 99.9% of people to everlasting punishment for the sins they committed during their 80 years or so upon earth, punishment that serves no purpose other than vengeance, then we destroy (in our minds) the true character of God, who is love, and think of Him as a tyrant. I've heard people say, that if that is what God is like, they will have nothing to do with him! Most human beings wouldn't torture a killer bear for even a short period of time, but rather mercifully kill it.

Post by **_TK** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:04 am

Here's a little C.S. Lewis:

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday, He simply sees you doing them: because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow, He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way--because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action tin you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.

This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it alone. It is a "Christian idea" in the sense that great and wise Christians have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity. But it is not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian without accepting it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all.

what are your thoughts on Mr. Lewis' explanation? again, i believe we cannot ultimately grasp how God works because of our limited grasp of dimensions, time, etc. i've always found good ol' C.S. to be helpful.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:28 pm

what are your thoughts on Mr. Lewis' explanation? again, i believe we cannot ultimately grasp how God works because of our limited grasp of dimensions, time, etc. i've always found good ol' C.S. to be helpful.

It's interesting and may be true TK and it's also similar to what Plato's view of God was meaning timeless,eternal and unchanging but does the bible actually reveal that about God?

There are many instances in the bible where God regrets doing something and often people think it's hyperbole but would God flood the earth and wipe out almost all of humanity over hyperbole?
"The Lord WAS SORRY that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart" Gen 6.6
The reality of God's regret is demonstrated by the fact that God immediately took measures to destroy humanity and start over? Now if the future was set in stone and known by God before he created the world , God would have known with certainty that man would arrive at this wicked state exactly at the time it happened.
But then why did God regret the way things turned out in fact so much so that He had no alternative but to virtually start over?

Post by **_TK** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:35 am

hi steve- it may be hyperbole, but it may simply be a limitation in putting into human language the way that God actually works. i know it frustrates us sometimes because things that God does don't always seem logical. i think we must resign ourselves that due to God's transcendance there will be mystery.

for example, in regard to the flood, the Bible does say that God "regretted" that he had made humankind. there's no doubt it says that, and we have a pretty good idea of what those words mean. but what if the word "sorry" or "regret" is the closest our language can come to expressing the truth based on what happened, when in fact the real truth is something inexpressible? it's nobody's fault that this problem exists... due to God's transcendant nature we would expect an inability to know everything about His workings, after all we are not transcendant. far from it. on the other hand, the Bible had to be written to reveal God to us, the best way possible, so that we can know God the extent He chooses to be known.

how can God be omniscient and us still have free will? they seem mutually exclusive. obviously they are not. the problem lies in our inability to logically resolve the dilemma. i just trust God that He knows what He is doing, although I used to be a lot more argumentative. C.S. Lewis' attempt at an explanation may touch on the truth, it may not. he may be a million miles off. it resolved the dilemma for him, apparently.

if we reach the conclusion that God actually felt sorry for something He knew would happen when He set it in motion, this could easily lead to a very wrong impression of God. it would sort of be like me putting ants in an ant farm, not provide them any food, and then feel sorry that the stupid things are starving and toss the works into a bonfire. not very nice of me, actually it would be sadistic. we know God is not like this, so obviously there is another explanation that cannot be expressed to our finite minds.

TK