Ask an atheist—but don't expect any straight answers!

Post by **_Asimov** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:13 pm

Allyn wrote:
Like everyone else, I would say that I'm a rational person. I know of no one who revels in claiming their irrationality.
By that answer then, the rational thing to do is to not take chances with your life. However I do understand it is not a simple choice. It requires faith and faith does not come cheap. In fact it was paid with a high price. It is also not just an intellectual choice. It is a heart choice. One based on the beginnings of a relationship. But if we make it an intellectual choice only then it has no teeth to hold on to you. All things can be rationalized and this is probably the greatest hurdle to jump. But maybe in time you will jump that hurdle and then the flood gates will open.
Here's hoping for your right choice.

How do you know it's the right choice?

You're saying I need to abandon rationality and revert to emotionalism. I don't operate on faith, allyn.

Post by **_Allyn** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:41 pm

That's just it. I do know it is the right choice. You are the one who doesn't know but still must make a choice. By doing nothing, you made a choice and it is just a matter of time then before you find out. Its pretty simple really. You say it could be that you will find out it is all just a dream, but still you won't know until you die. On the otherhand we Christians already know something you yearn to know but you are afraid or some such thing to make the bold step into the unknown. Well you are a person of free will but the choice is made for you if you make no choice at all and then it will be too late. Who knows, maybe there are 70 virginians (yes I do mean virginians) awaiting you. Or maybe 70 demons. At any rate the choice was made and you are stuck with it.

Now, if you make what I call a rational choice which comes from a desire to really know and understand then it would be one that is in this lifetime and that is a very rational choice.

Its still not too late. Which do you chose? By the way, what's wrong with operating by faith. We all do but just at different levels. Whether its faith that a chair will hold you up or faith that there is a Creator, so don't try to sneak it be me that faith is not a part of your life.

BTW, what are you going to do tomorrow?

Post by **_Asimov** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:39 pm

Allyn wrote:That's just it. I do know it is the right choice.

How do you know?

You are the one who doesn't know but still must make a choice.

How do you know I don't know?

Its pretty simple really. You say it could be that you will find out it is all just a dream, but still you won't know until you die.

What if I don't know when I die?

On the otherhand we Christians already know something you yearn to know but you are afraid or some such thing to make the bold step into the unknown.

What exactly do I yearn to know?

Now, if you make what I call a rational choice which comes from a desire to really know and understand then it would be one that is in this lifetime and that is a very rational choice.

It could be an irrational one.

Its still not too late. Which do you chose? By the way, what's wrong with operating by faith. We all do but just at different levels. Whether its faith that a chair will hold you up or faith that there is a Creator, so don't try to sneak it be me that faith is not a part of your life.

I do not operate on the faith that you describe:

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

And I definitely do not operate on religious faith:
The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

BTW, what are you going to do tomorrow?

I'm going to work, do I know this absolutely? No, but I do know this inductively.

Post by **_Allyn** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:47 pm

Ok, so have a good day tomorrow

Post by **_Asimov** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:05 am

Allyn wrote:Ok, so have a good day tomorrow

Thanks! 8)

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:33 am

Asimov,

You said:

I gave you the reason why I deny the existence of miracles, there are no verified miracles so I do not believe they exist.

Can you prove there are no verified miracles? And how would one be verified? Miracles are by definition outside nature so science can not prove a miracle has never occurred. How about eyewitness testimony, by many witnesses to a fact? Courts accept and juries believe it all the time.

Post by **_Asimov** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:23 am

Homer wrote: Can you prove there are no verified miracles?

Nope. It would be easy to prove me wrong, though.

And how would one be verified?

That's not my issue. Whoever thinks a miracle has occured has to provide that.

Miracles are by definition outside nature so science can not prove a miracle has never occurred.

Correct.

How about eyewitness testimony, by many witnesses to a fact?

How would that verify a miracle?

Courts accept and juries believe it all the time.

Miracles?

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:20 am

Asimov,

Nope. It would be easy to prove me wrong, though

How would one prove you wrong? I can not produce a miracle, you would not accept testimony, you probably would not believe if you saw one, and they can't be replicated scientifically.

Although investigation may debunk a particular claim of a miracle, it can not rule out all miracles. Your belief is based on faith, as most of what we "know" is. You believe testimony - what you read, see on TV, what people tell you even though it is often wrong or inaccurate. This includes the scientific community.

Post by **_Asimov** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:54 am

Homer wrote:How would one prove you wrong?

By providing one verified miracle.

I can not produce a miracle, you would not accept testimony, you probably would not believe if you saw one, and they can't be replicated scientifically.

I accept testimony only as what people say they saw. That does not verify the miraculous nature of an event. How do you know I would not believe?

Although investigation may debunk a particular claim of a miracle, it can not rule out all miracles.

No, but then again why should I believe something that cannot be verified to have happened? At the very least I should remain very sceptical.

Your belief is based on faith, as most of what we "know" is.

Can you please support that claim?

You believe testimony - what you read, see on TV, what people tell you even though it is often wrong or inaccurate. This includes the scientific community.

Not necessarily. I don't believe everything I read, see on TV or what people tell me, especially if it sounds irrational. And yes, it does include the scientific community.

In science, like every one who inquires into the workings of the universe, I conditionally accept the findings and theorizing of scientists.

You seem to be trying to "black and white" a muddy issue of belief. Not everything is "Believe absolutely 100%". That isn't how I work, nor is it how science works.

Post by **_glow** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:05 pm

Asimov What would you call this?

Eighteen years ago when my family lived in Mi. through prayer we felt in our "beings" we were called to move from where we lived. I home schooled my kids at the time. Each morning before we started school we prayed to God he would show us where we should move to. The kids and I and my husband decided we would take the bible literally where we are told to pray to God about anything.

So we actually made a list of where we would like to live as far as the terrain, my daughter wanted land so she could have a pony etc. We prayed very innocently. I as a parent prayed we would be where we felt freedom in God, mates for our kids etc.

Anyways after a few months one night I had a dream. I believe the Holy spirit came to me and took me through a vision. He showed my the earth like I was above it like flying over it. He showed me a map very specifically land, the terrain, a towns name. In the end there were at least 20 things that were showed and told me.

I woke up like an electric bolt had gone through me. I quickly got out a piece of paper and jotted down everything I could remeber. A couple weeks later I told my husband. He felt also the Holy Spirit had given this info to me. We then went out into the world to find this place. We found it.

Now 18 yrs later I am living in the exact state, town, house at one time ( we have moved from it since then) ALL 20 things came to pass. None of them were things we could have made up or made happen. I had never heard of the town before etc. The terrain was just as he showed me including the house and some of the things came to pass a year later as predicted.

So how would you define this experince. I and all my family members lived through it and saw the list and saw all the things come to pass. Glow