"The Open View of God" or "Open Theis

[Guest]

if we reach the conclusion that God actually felt sorry for something He knew would happen when He set it in motion, this could easily lead to a very wrong impression of God. it would sort of be like me putting ants in an ant farm, not provide them any food, and then feel sorry that the stupid things are starving and toss the works into a bonfire. not very nice of me, actually it would be sadistic. we know God is not like this, so obviously there is another explanation that cannot be expressed to our finite minds.


Very true TK therefore either God did'nt really regret what he created or he did'nt know the future. However if he did'nt regret what he created then why did he create the flood?
Another interesting example of God's "apparent" regret concerns his decision to make Saul king of Israel. The OT says that God intended to bless him and his household for many generations, 1 Sam 13.13 .
However Saul had a change of heart and followed the path of sin and God said " I REGRET that i made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me." 1 Sam 15.10
Then several verses later it says "The Lord WAS SORRY that he had made Saul king over Israel." 1 Sam 15.35

It seems to me that common sense would tell us that we can only regret a decision we made if the decision resulted in an outcome other than what we expected or hoped for when the decision was made.
And i don't see any reason to believe the word "regret" should mean anything different then the face value of the word.
The word "regret" as we have seen is now used by 2 different authors regarding God's reaction to a decision he had made.

The bible also says that God is perfectly wise then perhaps we should just accept what scripture actually says which is one can be perfectly wise yet still regret a decision even if this is a mystery to us.

[Guest]

hey steve- the reason that the word "regret" or "sorrow" makes me cringe when applied to God is that it seems to presume a mistake of some kind or at minimum poor judgment on His part. i believe these are mere anthropomorphic terms that we use to describe what occurred. do you really believe that God felt sorry or regret, as we do? i really don't see Him moping around heaven. he is immutable, omniscient, holy, omnipotent, transcendant, sovereign, omnipresent, self-sufficient etc etc etc. in short, He doesn't need us at all.

because we were created "in His image" we have a desire to relate to Him as we relate to other people. this is okay.. after all He created us that way. But we simply cannot relate to Him in all ways because we are so unlike Him.

[_Paidion]

TK, it did not indicate a mistake or poor judgment on God's part. It indicated the fact that it is logically impossible to know in advance what a free-will agent will choose.

It's states that God regretted His own choice concerning Saul.

because we were created "in His image" we have a desire to relate to Him as we relate to other people. this is okay.. after all He created us that way. But we simply cannot relate to Him in all ways because we are so unlike Him.

To state that God cannot really regret anything, and that "regret" when applied to God isn't really regret, seems to me to be creating our own God instead of the one that the Bible reveals.

Why not take what is written to form our theology? In doing so me may find out what God is really like.

[Guest]

Hi Paidon-- in reference to God "regretting," you said: It indicated the fact that it is logically impossible to know in advance what a free-will agent will choose.

i guess your statement only makes sense to me if you believe that God is not omniscient, i.e. that He doesn't know everything, including the future. If this is what you believe, and if you are correct, then I agree that God could regret or feel disappointed about the choices of his creation. The problem I have personally, however, is that I believe that God DOES know the future. then again I don't think God is in a time-stream, so "future" has limited meaning. i suppose the easiest way to say it is that I believe God DOES know what his free-will agents will do, w/o robbing them of their free will. how can this be? well now, "there's the rub." I agree with you that logically it can't be. at least the logic at our disposal. when I get to the point of logic breaking down, I simply allow God to be God and proceed to live my free-will existence. but God still knows what I am going to do tomorrow

and believe me, I have a high view of scripture. i really do. when I re-read what I wrote above (that you called me out on) it sounds shaky at best, and you were right to call me out on it. after re-thinking, I can put it this way: i believe that some how, some way, God's "regretting" in no way implies that He did not know what would happen. and at the same time, the fact that He DID know what would happen does not necessarily mean he was robbing his free-will agents of their free-will. that is the conclusion that a lot of people leap to, based upon logic as you described. that is simply a leap that i, at present, am unwilling to make.

TK

[Guest]

and believe me, I have a high view of scripture. i really do. when I re-read what I wrote above (that you called me out on) it sounds shaky at best, and you were right to call me out on it. after re-thinking, I can put it this way: i believe that some how, some way, God's "regretting" in no way implies that He did not know what would happen. and at the same time, the fact that He DID know what would happen does not necessarily mean he was robbing his free-will agents of their free-will. that is the conclusion that a lot of people leap to, based upon logic as you described. that is simply a leap that i, at present, am unwilling to make.


OK TK maybe when you get a chance perhaps you could explain why if God created man and knew he would be evil all the time , then why God would flood the earth because man just did what God expected him to do and did what God knew he would do. That would mean that from the point God created Adam he also planned the flood to wipe out almost all of humanity.
You see to give man true free will God may have to let go to some extent in whatever way God let's go.
And it's not if the word "regret" is the only word describing something unexpected happening.
In Isaiah 5.2 God describes Israel as a vineyard and himself as the loving owner. He says as the owner of the vineyard he "expected it to yield grapes, but it yielded wild grapes"
"When i expected it to yield grapes ,why did it yield wild grapes?" 5.4
"I will remove it's hedge and it shall be devoured." 5.5

You see if verses like these are hyperbole why would God actually take action like here removing the hedge around Israel or creating the flood in Genesis?

[Guest]

Steve-

Before I attempt to answer your question (i doubt that i can satisfactorily), let me ask you a question, simply to help my understanding of what your position seems to be.

You seem be suggesting that God does not really know the future, which explains how He can regret things, and also assures that we have free will in our choices. My question, then, is this. If God does not know the future, is there any use in praying about certain things? For example, I may wish to pray for protection for my family if they need to go on a long drive. If God does not know in advance what will happen, how can He orchestrate events to provide that protection? in other words, let's say that at 10:15 pm next wednesday my family will be driving through a busy intersection. how can God assure(assuming He wants to answer my prayer) that a drunk driver wont crash the red light at 10:15 pm and plow into my family's vehicle, if God doesn't know that they will be there at 10:15 pm? on a much broader note, how can God do anything to answer a prayer asking that some future thing comes to pass?

it is possible that I am not clear in my question.. but i hope you get the gist.

Thx, TK

[_Paidion]

i guess your statement only makes sense to me if you believe that God is not omniscient, i.e. that He doesn't know everything, including the future.

Perhaps you have not read my other posts on this subject.

First, allow me to affirm that I do believe that God is omnicient, that He knows everything. And yes, that does include the future in the following cases:

1. When God determines to do a thing, nothing, including free will agents, can thwart it. God knows the end of His plan from the beginning.

2.When there is a chain of natural causes, none of which was caused by a free-will agent other than God. For example, God knows where a particualar astronomical object will be located at a given time.

Now I want to show why it is logically impossible for God (or anyone else) to know what a free-will agent will choose.

Statements about the future, where free will agents are involved, have no truth value (are neither true nor false) NOW.

Proof by example:

Consider the statement that Joe Bloe raises his hand at some future time T.

Suppose the statement is NOW true. Then Joe MUST raise his hand at time T. He CANNOT refrain from raising his hand at time T. Because, if he does refrain from raising his hand at time T, then the statement COULD NOT BE TRUE NOW. Since Joe cannot raise his hand at time T, (assuming he is not physically restrained), he does not have free will.

Suppose that the statement is NOW false. Then Joe CANNOT raise his hand at time T. In this case also, he does not have free will.

But Joe DOES have free will. Therefore we have a logical contradiction.

Conclusion: The statement "Joe Bloe raises his hand at some future time T" is NOW neither true nor false. Such a statement will become true or false only when Joe makes his decision at time T whether to raise his hand or not.

To say that God knows that Joe Bloe will raise his hand at time T implies that the statement is true now. Likewise, to say that God knows that Joe Bloe will not raise his hand at time T, implies that the statement is false now.

But I have shown that the statement is neither true nor false now.
Logical contradition.

Therefore God does not NOW know whether or not Joe Bloe will choose to raise his hand at time T.

[Guest]

Paidon-

I actually agree with what you just posted. thank you for stating it so well. and you are right-- although i have ready many of your posts on other topics i have not seen any relating to this topic.. thanks for taking the time to state it again.

Can this position be summarized by stating that God knows what I will do, but only if I in fact do it?

in other words, God's knowledge doesnt create the facts, but is rather subject to the facts.

[_Paidion]

Can this position be summarized by stating that God knows what I will do, but only if I in fact do it?

in other words, God's knowledge doesnt create the facts, but is rather subject to the facts.

Your summary does not seem clear: "God knows what I will do, but only if I in fact do it." If it's "only if I in fact do it", then it's already been done, and He will know it only after it's been done, and not before. So God doesn't know what you will do, but what you have done.

Someone said, "Events in the future have not yet occurred, and so there's nothing to know."

Being omnipotent, and knowing the hearts and minds of man, and all events which have occurred, God is in a much better postion to correctly predict an individual's future choice, than any human being, whose knowledge is limited.

When my son was four years old, I might have said, "If I say to my son, 'Jamie come here', I know he'll come". In his case, I'm using "know" in the weaker sense of being highly predictive. I didn't actually KNOW he'd come. He might have chosen not to. God also "knows" what we will choose in this weaker sense. Based upon His full knowledge of every event, including our every thought and choice in the past, he is highly likely to predict correctly.

[Guest]

Paidion,

I am interested to know how you deal with Jesus' prediction of Peter's denials. Not just his denial though, because I could see how Jesus could possibly guess that, but the fact that he would do it three times before the rooster crowed. Forgive me if you have already answered this.