Thanks SE-- i agree with you. the frustrating thing is that both views can't be right.
one question for the "open theist" folks (and i might be one of you)-- if the other view is correct (that God knows what you will choose) resulting in you not really having free will, does it really matter since it SEEMS like we have free will? in other words, me sitting here typing these words seems like a free will act. if God ordained that i would do this at this moment from the foundation of the world, it doesnt matter to me because i feel free. nobody is forcing me to do it, at least not on a conscious level.
TK
"The Open View of God" or "Open Theis
Yes, it does really matter. For one of the ways in which man was created in the image of God ---- perhaps the main way --- is having free will. I think we don't appreciate that enough. It is awesome that we, like God, can freely choose, and that God was willing to risk creating free-will beings such as Himself.one question for the "open theist" folks (and i might be one of you)-- if the other view is correct (that God knows what you will choose) resulting in you not really having free will, does it really matter since it SEEMS like we have free will? in other words, me sitting here typing these words seems like a free will act. if God ordained that i would do this at this moment from the foundation of the world, it doesnt matter to me because i feel free. nobody is forcing me to do it, at least not on a conscious level.
God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. Yet His will in that regard is presently being thwarted by free will beings, even though His kindness towards us is meant to lead us to repentance. Still, He has been so patient throughout many centuries, "commanding all people everywhere to repent". But the command has not yet been obeyed.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
“Yet forty days and Nineveh will be destroyed.”
This statement appears to be absolute, not conditional. A conditional statement would look something like this:
“If you do not repent, Nineveh will be destroyed in forty days.”
Of course, one could maintain that though conditionality is not stated, it is implied. The usual reason for thinking so, is to justify one’s pre-assumption that God would not change His mind about an absolute prophecy. On the other hand, the fulfillment of this and many other prophecies seem to be conditioned to the response of the people.
God also prophesied through Micah what appears to be an absolute prophecy:
Micah 3:12 Therefore because of you Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height.
But that prophecy did not come true! Certain elders of Judah pointed this out in the court of the temple before those who intended to kill Jeremiah for his prophecy against Judah:
Jeremiah 26:1-3
In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came from Yahweh, "Thus says Yahweh: Stand in the court of Yahweh’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah which come to worship in the house of Yahweh all the words that I command you to speak to them; do not hold back a word. It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may change my mind concerning the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.
Yahweh states “it may be they will listen.” Is that not recognition that it is up to the Israelites whether or not God will respond appropriately to their decision. Then God clearly states that if that should happen He will change His mind concerning the evil that He otherwise intends to do to them.
Jeremiah 26:4-11
“You shall say to them, ‘Thus says Yahweh: If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law which I have set before you, and to heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you urgently, though you have not heeded, then I will make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse for all the nations of the earth.’"
The priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of Yahweh.
And when Jeremiah had finished speaking all that Yahweh had commanded him to speak to all the people, then the priests and the prophets and all the people laid hold of him, saying, "You shall die!
Why have you prophesied in the name of Yahweh, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without inhabitant’?" And all the people gathered about Jeremiah in the house of Yahweh. When the princes of Judah heard these things, they came up from the king’s house to the house of Yahweh and took their seat in the entry of the New Gate of the house of Yahweh. Then the priests and the prophets said to the princes and to all the people, "This man deserves the sentence of death, because he has prophesied against this city, as you have heard with your own ears."
It seems that the priests and prophets and the people, like many today, thought that God wouldn’t change His mind if they repented. But at least they could get their revenge by killing the prophet. But Jeremiah himself believed that God would change His mind
Jeremiah 26:12-13
Then Jeremiah spoke to all the princes and all the people, saying, “Yahweh sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the words you have heard. Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of Yahweh your God, and Yahweh will change His mind concerning the evil which he has pronounced against you.
Then Jeremiah warns them of the results of the act of killing him:
Jeremiah 26:14-15
“But as for me, behold, I am in your hands. Do with me as seems good and right to you.
Only know for certain that if you put me to death, you will bring innocent blood upon yourselves and upon this city and its inhabitants, for in truth Yahweh sent me to you to speak all these words in your ears."
Finally, certain elders brought up the fact that, after prophesying through Micah that Zion would be plowed up and Jerusalem destroyed, King Hezekiah entreated Yahweh so that He changed His mind.
Jeremiah 26:16-19
Then the princes and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, "This man does not deserve the sentence of death, for he has spoken to us in the name of Yahweh our God."
And certain of the elders of the land arose and spoke to all the assembled people, saying,
"Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and said to all the people of Judah: ‘Thus says Yahweh of hosts, Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height.’
Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear Yahweh and entreat the favor of Yahweh, and did not Yahweh change His mind concerning the evil which he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great evil upon ourselves."
So the bottom line is, if God knows all the future, so that it is set in stone, how can He, in response to mere human beings, change His mind about what He said in unconditional prophecies?
This statement appears to be absolute, not conditional. A conditional statement would look something like this:
“If you do not repent, Nineveh will be destroyed in forty days.”
Of course, one could maintain that though conditionality is not stated, it is implied. The usual reason for thinking so, is to justify one’s pre-assumption that God would not change His mind about an absolute prophecy. On the other hand, the fulfillment of this and many other prophecies seem to be conditioned to the response of the people.
God also prophesied through Micah what appears to be an absolute prophecy:
Micah 3:12 Therefore because of you Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height.
But that prophecy did not come true! Certain elders of Judah pointed this out in the court of the temple before those who intended to kill Jeremiah for his prophecy against Judah:
Jeremiah 26:1-3
In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came from Yahweh, "Thus says Yahweh: Stand in the court of Yahweh’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah which come to worship in the house of Yahweh all the words that I command you to speak to them; do not hold back a word. It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may change my mind concerning the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.
Yahweh states “it may be they will listen.” Is that not recognition that it is up to the Israelites whether or not God will respond appropriately to their decision. Then God clearly states that if that should happen He will change His mind concerning the evil that He otherwise intends to do to them.
Jeremiah 26:4-11
“You shall say to them, ‘Thus says Yahweh: If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law which I have set before you, and to heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you urgently, though you have not heeded, then I will make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse for all the nations of the earth.’"
The priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of Yahweh.
And when Jeremiah had finished speaking all that Yahweh had commanded him to speak to all the people, then the priests and the prophets and all the people laid hold of him, saying, "You shall die!
Why have you prophesied in the name of Yahweh, saying, ‘This house shall be like Shiloh, and this city shall be desolate, without inhabitant’?" And all the people gathered about Jeremiah in the house of Yahweh. When the princes of Judah heard these things, they came up from the king’s house to the house of Yahweh and took their seat in the entry of the New Gate of the house of Yahweh. Then the priests and the prophets said to the princes and to all the people, "This man deserves the sentence of death, because he has prophesied against this city, as you have heard with your own ears."
It seems that the priests and prophets and the people, like many today, thought that God wouldn’t change His mind if they repented. But at least they could get their revenge by killing the prophet. But Jeremiah himself believed that God would change His mind
Jeremiah 26:12-13
Then Jeremiah spoke to all the princes and all the people, saying, “Yahweh sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the words you have heard. Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of Yahweh your God, and Yahweh will change His mind concerning the evil which he has pronounced against you.
Then Jeremiah warns them of the results of the act of killing him:
Jeremiah 26:14-15
“But as for me, behold, I am in your hands. Do with me as seems good and right to you.
Only know for certain that if you put me to death, you will bring innocent blood upon yourselves and upon this city and its inhabitants, for in truth Yahweh sent me to you to speak all these words in your ears."
Finally, certain elders brought up the fact that, after prophesying through Micah that Zion would be plowed up and Jerusalem destroyed, King Hezekiah entreated Yahweh so that He changed His mind.
Jeremiah 26:16-19
Then the princes and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, "This man does not deserve the sentence of death, for he has spoken to us in the name of Yahweh our God."
And certain of the elders of the land arose and spoke to all the assembled people, saying,
"Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and said to all the people of Judah: ‘Thus says Yahweh of hosts, Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height.’
Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear Yahweh and entreat the favor of Yahweh, and did not Yahweh change His mind concerning the evil which he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great evil upon ourselves."
So the bottom line is, if God knows all the future, so that it is set in stone, how can He, in response to mere human beings, change His mind about what He said in unconditional prophecies?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
-
_SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
Jeremiah 26:3: Perhaps they will listen and turn from their evil way
"Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds," (Jer. 26:3).
The Lord often speaks to us in our time reference so that what He wants to accomplish gets done. It is important to understand that God brings about certain changes in people by telling them that they will be punished if they continue in sin. They hear God's pronouncement, change their ways, and repent. God then "changes" from punishing them to blessing them. This does not mean that God did not know from all eternity that they would change their ways. It means that from all eternity God ordained the means by which they would change; namely, His pronouncement of judgment which would motivate them to change. It is this working in our time frame that is necessary for us, not God. The means God uses to bring change is often the appearance of options He gives us. As free creatures, He gives us the choice to change -- knowing ahead of time what our choices will be should He warn us; thereby, bringing about change through His interaction with us. This is a better explanation than assuming that God is ignorant, can make mistakes, and takes chances.
In Jer. 26:3, God is giving the cities of Judah a warning urging them to change. From the human perspective, perhaps they will change. Perhaps they will not. We don't know. But, God knows.
Jeremiah 26:19 The Lord changed His mind
“Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves," (Jer. 26:19).
The Hebrew word for "changed His mind" is nacham. It also means "relented" and it "does not mean that God changed His mind but that He embarked on another course of action. The Hebrew word nacham suggests relief or comfort from a planned, undesirable course of action. God is not inflexible; He responds to individuals’ needs, attitudes, and actions."1
Different Bible translations render this verse differently. The NASB says, "changed His mind." The NIV and NKJV, say "relent." The KJV, RSV, and 1901 ASV say "repent." Either way, the Lord knows the future and states what will happen if different choices are made, i.e., "If you do this, then this will happen; if you do that, that that will happen." They do not mean that God is ignorant of the future and had to adapt. On the contrary, they mean that God knows exactly what will happen in the future given different choices. This is not possible if God does not know the future precisely and exhaustively.
Nevertheless, in Jer. 26:19, we have the account of the Lord dealing with Hezekiah. God's "changing of his mind" is the reference to how God deals with us in our time frame. We perceive it as God changing His mind, but from all eternity God knew what would happen and what He would do.
Furthermore, the Lord often speaks to us in our time reference so that what He wants to accomplish gets done. It is important to understand that God brings about certain changes in people by telling them that they will be punished if they continue in sin. They hear God's pronouncement, change their ways, and repent. God then "changes" from punishing them to blessing them. This does not mean that God did not know from all eternity that they would change their ways. It means that from all eternity God ordained the means by which they would change; namely, His pronouncement of judgment which would motivate them to change. It is this working in our time frame that is necessary for us, not God. The means God uses to bring change is often the appearance of options He gives us. As free creatures, He gives us the choice to change -- knowing ahead of time what our choices will be should He warn us; thereby, bringing about change through His interaction with us. This is a better explanation than assuming that God is ignorant, can make mistakes, and takes chances.
_________________
1. Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.
By Matt Slick
"Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds," (Jer. 26:3).
The Lord often speaks to us in our time reference so that what He wants to accomplish gets done. It is important to understand that God brings about certain changes in people by telling them that they will be punished if they continue in sin. They hear God's pronouncement, change their ways, and repent. God then "changes" from punishing them to blessing them. This does not mean that God did not know from all eternity that they would change their ways. It means that from all eternity God ordained the means by which they would change; namely, His pronouncement of judgment which would motivate them to change. It is this working in our time frame that is necessary for us, not God. The means God uses to bring change is often the appearance of options He gives us. As free creatures, He gives us the choice to change -- knowing ahead of time what our choices will be should He warn us; thereby, bringing about change through His interaction with us. This is a better explanation than assuming that God is ignorant, can make mistakes, and takes chances.
In Jer. 26:3, God is giving the cities of Judah a warning urging them to change. From the human perspective, perhaps they will change. Perhaps they will not. We don't know. But, God knows.
Jeremiah 26:19 The Lord changed His mind
“Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves," (Jer. 26:19).
The Hebrew word for "changed His mind" is nacham. It also means "relented" and it "does not mean that God changed His mind but that He embarked on another course of action. The Hebrew word nacham suggests relief or comfort from a planned, undesirable course of action. God is not inflexible; He responds to individuals’ needs, attitudes, and actions."1
Different Bible translations render this verse differently. The NASB says, "changed His mind." The NIV and NKJV, say "relent." The KJV, RSV, and 1901 ASV say "repent." Either way, the Lord knows the future and states what will happen if different choices are made, i.e., "If you do this, then this will happen; if you do that, that that will happen." They do not mean that God is ignorant of the future and had to adapt. On the contrary, they mean that God knows exactly what will happen in the future given different choices. This is not possible if God does not know the future precisely and exhaustively.
Nevertheless, in Jer. 26:19, we have the account of the Lord dealing with Hezekiah. God's "changing of his mind" is the reference to how God deals with us in our time frame. We perceive it as God changing His mind, but from all eternity God knew what would happen and what He would do.
Furthermore, the Lord often speaks to us in our time reference so that what He wants to accomplish gets done. It is important to understand that God brings about certain changes in people by telling them that they will be punished if they continue in sin. They hear God's pronouncement, change their ways, and repent. God then "changes" from punishing them to blessing them. This does not mean that God did not know from all eternity that they would change their ways. It means that from all eternity God ordained the means by which they would change; namely, His pronouncement of judgment which would motivate them to change. It is this working in our time frame that is necessary for us, not God. The means God uses to bring change is often the appearance of options He gives us. As free creatures, He gives us the choice to change -- knowing ahead of time what our choices will be should He warn us; thereby, bringing about change through His interaction with us. This is a better explanation than assuming that God is ignorant, can make mistakes, and takes chances.
_________________
1. Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.
By Matt Slick
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
The means God uses to bring change is often the appearance of options He gives us. As free creatures, He gives us the choice to change -- knowing ahead of time what our choices will be should He warn us; thereby, bringing about change through His interaction with us. This is a better explanation than assuming that God is ignorant, can make mistakes, and takes chances.
If God does'nt know what choices free will creatures will make it's not out of ignorance but because what they might do is not a settled event yet and there is nothing to know. Your explanation may sound like a better explanation but taking scripture at face value does'nt lead to this conclusion it leads to open theism i think.
So in your system God created man knowing it would be necessary to create a flood to virtually wipe out what God created because man did what God knew he would do because it was set in stone from the beginning.
If God does'nt know what choices free will creatures will make it's not out of ignorance but because what they might do is not a settled event yet and there is nothing to know. Your explanation may sound like a better explanation but taking scripture at face value does'nt lead to this conclusion it leads to open theism i think.
So in your system God created man knowing it would be necessary to create a flood to virtually wipe out what God created because man did what God knew he would do because it was set in stone from the beginning.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hey guys-
what i am struggling with now is the concept of "God's will" and how it fits in with Open Theism.
if open theism is correct, then everything that God "wills" to occur will depend on potentially nearly an infinite number of factors that must come together to produce the "will" of God. quite the risky proposition.
since this is the case, and if God really is a God that takes chances, then I simply can't get the visual out of my head of God "wringing his hands" hoping that His creations will make the correct decisions that ultimately result in the fulfillment of His will. i know this sounds silly, but if Open theism is correct, isnt this a logical conclusion? (not that God is wringing His hands-- i am exagerrating about that). it sort of smacks of Deism to me (i hope i have my "ism" right). if you accept that God is willing to accept the decisions of his free will agents, then you must be willing to accept that God's will is rarely fulfilled, because His free will agents are notoriously untrustworthy.
now, if you say that God can make His will come to pass by orchestrating events and "forcing" people to act a certain way, how is this any less objectionable than the idea that He simply knows in advance what people will do (and thereby "force" them to do it)?
(all of this reminds me of a Far Side cartoon-- a nerdy student is holding up his hand in class and asks the teacher; "can i be excused? my brain is full").
TK
what i am struggling with now is the concept of "God's will" and how it fits in with Open Theism.
if open theism is correct, then everything that God "wills" to occur will depend on potentially nearly an infinite number of factors that must come together to produce the "will" of God. quite the risky proposition.
since this is the case, and if God really is a God that takes chances, then I simply can't get the visual out of my head of God "wringing his hands" hoping that His creations will make the correct decisions that ultimately result in the fulfillment of His will. i know this sounds silly, but if Open theism is correct, isnt this a logical conclusion? (not that God is wringing His hands-- i am exagerrating about that). it sort of smacks of Deism to me (i hope i have my "ism" right). if you accept that God is willing to accept the decisions of his free will agents, then you must be willing to accept that God's will is rarely fulfilled, because His free will agents are notoriously untrustworthy.
now, if you say that God can make His will come to pass by orchestrating events and "forcing" people to act a certain way, how is this any less objectionable than the idea that He simply knows in advance what people will do (and thereby "force" them to do it)?
(all of this reminds me of a Far Side cartoon-- a nerdy student is holding up his hand in class and asks the teacher; "can i be excused? my brain is full").
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
"Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds," (Jer. 26:3).
Matt Slick:
The Lord often speaks to us in our time reference so that what He wants to accomplish gets done.
What is Slick saying, if anything? Saying that He “often” (rather than always) speaks to us in our time reference” seems to indicate that He sometimes speaks to us outside our time reference. What could that possibly mean?
It is important to understand that God brings about certain changes in people by telling them that they will be punished if they continue in sin.
Since God knows every detail of the future, according to Slick, then the future is pre-determined. Why “bring about changes” in people? Won’t it all happen anyway? What would happen if God didn’t “bring about changes in people”. Would His foreknowledge fail? Or is it not possible for Him to refrain from bringing about these changes? Are all of God’s actions also pre-determined?
They hear God's pronouncement, change their ways, and repent. God then "changes" from punishing them to blessing them. This does not mean that God did not know from all eternity that they would change their ways. It means that from all eternity God ordained the means by which they would change; namely, His pronouncement of judgment which would motivate them to change. It is this working in our time frame that is necessary for us, not God. The means God uses to bring change is often the appearance of options He gives us.
Now Slick seems to be saying that we are mere robots, that God is using various means to change us so that we will do His will. These means appear to be options He gives us, but they are not genuine options.
As free creatures, He gives us the choice to change -- knowing ahead of time what our choices will be should He warn us; thereby, bringing about change through His interaction with us.
Is Slick is now stating that we have free choice after all? That we do not merely “appear” to be free but actually do have the power of choise? Will he make up his mind?
This is a better explanation than assuming that God is ignorant, can make mistakes, and takes chances.
It’s no explanation at all! Furthermore, the first two alternatives he gives are not held by those of us who believe that God took risks in creating beings with free wills.
None of us believes “God is ignorant”; rather we believe that He is omniscient. He knows everything that is logically possible to know. To say that this includes what a free being will choose, as I have shown, is meaningless nonsense.
Nor do we believe that God “makes mistakes”. God said, “I thought, ‘After she has done all this, she will return to Me’; but she did not return.” (Jeremiah 3:6-7). This was not a mistake. It simply supports the truth that the choices of free will agents cannot be known in advance. God knew every detail of their thoughts, and that knowledge indicated that they would return to Him. But they chose not to return. In a similar manner, from what God knew of the Ninevites, it doubtless seemed that they would not repent, so He chose to speak through the prophet Jonah that they would be destroyed. But they repented. They had the free will to do so, in spite of their inclinations.
In Jer. 26:3, God is giving the cities of Judah a warning urging them to change. From the human perspective, perhaps they will change. Perhaps they will not. We don't know. But, God knows.
If the possibility of change is only a human perspective, and not God’s, why did GOD say, “It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may change my mind concerning the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.”
If God’s words “it may be that they will listen” does not mean “it may be that they will listen”, then what do they mean? And if their turning from their evil ways does not induce God to “change His mind” about His intended punishment, then why DID He say that it would? What else could He have meant by saying so?
“Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves," (Jer. 26:19).
The Hebrew word for "changed His mind" is nacham. It also means "relented" and it "does not mean that God changed His mind but that He embarked on another course of action. The Hebrew word nacham suggests relief or comfort from a planned, undesirable course of action. God is not inflexible; He responds to individuals’ needs, attitudes, and actions."
So now Slick states that God “responds to individuals’ needs, attitudes, and actions." If He does, then He will change His mind in accordance with human choice.
The word “repent” means “have a change of mind” both in Greek (etymologically) and in English, according to dictionaries. The word “relent” also seems to imply a change of heart and mind. The primary meaning of the Hebrew word “nacham” used in this verse, according to lexicons, is “to be sorry”. If that is the meaning, then why would God be sorry for intending to punish Judah, after He saw that they repented? God would hardly be sorry for something that he intended all along. But He “took a different course of action” and didn’t punish them. Why would He do that, if He had known all along that they would repent?
The first and last paragraphs of the post are identical. Was that an error on your part, SEagle? Or did Matt Slick write it that way?
.
Matt Slick:
The Lord often speaks to us in our time reference so that what He wants to accomplish gets done.
What is Slick saying, if anything? Saying that He “often” (rather than always) speaks to us in our time reference” seems to indicate that He sometimes speaks to us outside our time reference. What could that possibly mean?
It is important to understand that God brings about certain changes in people by telling them that they will be punished if they continue in sin.
Since God knows every detail of the future, according to Slick, then the future is pre-determined. Why “bring about changes” in people? Won’t it all happen anyway? What would happen if God didn’t “bring about changes in people”. Would His foreknowledge fail? Or is it not possible for Him to refrain from bringing about these changes? Are all of God’s actions also pre-determined?
They hear God's pronouncement, change their ways, and repent. God then "changes" from punishing them to blessing them. This does not mean that God did not know from all eternity that they would change their ways. It means that from all eternity God ordained the means by which they would change; namely, His pronouncement of judgment which would motivate them to change. It is this working in our time frame that is necessary for us, not God. The means God uses to bring change is often the appearance of options He gives us.
Now Slick seems to be saying that we are mere robots, that God is using various means to change us so that we will do His will. These means appear to be options He gives us, but they are not genuine options.
As free creatures, He gives us the choice to change -- knowing ahead of time what our choices will be should He warn us; thereby, bringing about change through His interaction with us.
Is Slick is now stating that we have free choice after all? That we do not merely “appear” to be free but actually do have the power of choise? Will he make up his mind?
This is a better explanation than assuming that God is ignorant, can make mistakes, and takes chances.
It’s no explanation at all! Furthermore, the first two alternatives he gives are not held by those of us who believe that God took risks in creating beings with free wills.
None of us believes “God is ignorant”; rather we believe that He is omniscient. He knows everything that is logically possible to know. To say that this includes what a free being will choose, as I have shown, is meaningless nonsense.
Nor do we believe that God “makes mistakes”. God said, “I thought, ‘After she has done all this, she will return to Me’; but she did not return.” (Jeremiah 3:6-7). This was not a mistake. It simply supports the truth that the choices of free will agents cannot be known in advance. God knew every detail of their thoughts, and that knowledge indicated that they would return to Him. But they chose not to return. In a similar manner, from what God knew of the Ninevites, it doubtless seemed that they would not repent, so He chose to speak through the prophet Jonah that they would be destroyed. But they repented. They had the free will to do so, in spite of their inclinations.
In Jer. 26:3, God is giving the cities of Judah a warning urging them to change. From the human perspective, perhaps they will change. Perhaps they will not. We don't know. But, God knows.
If the possibility of change is only a human perspective, and not God’s, why did GOD say, “It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may change my mind concerning the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.”
If God’s words “it may be that they will listen” does not mean “it may be that they will listen”, then what do they mean? And if their turning from their evil ways does not induce God to “change His mind” about His intended punishment, then why DID He say that it would? What else could He have meant by saying so?
“Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and the Lord changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves," (Jer. 26:19).
The Hebrew word for "changed His mind" is nacham. It also means "relented" and it "does not mean that God changed His mind but that He embarked on another course of action. The Hebrew word nacham suggests relief or comfort from a planned, undesirable course of action. God is not inflexible; He responds to individuals’ needs, attitudes, and actions."
So now Slick states that God “responds to individuals’ needs, attitudes, and actions." If He does, then He will change His mind in accordance with human choice.
The word “repent” means “have a change of mind” both in Greek (etymologically) and in English, according to dictionaries. The word “relent” also seems to imply a change of heart and mind. The primary meaning of the Hebrew word “nacham” used in this verse, according to lexicons, is “to be sorry”. If that is the meaning, then why would God be sorry for intending to punish Judah, after He saw that they repented? God would hardly be sorry for something that he intended all along. But He “took a different course of action” and didn’t punish them. Why would He do that, if He had known all along that they would repent?
The first and last paragraphs of the post are identical. Was that an error on your part, SEagle? Or did Matt Slick write it that way?
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Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
if open theism is correct, then everything that God "wills" to occur will depend on potentially nearly an infinite number of factors that must come together to produce the "will" of God. quite the risky proposition.
I don't think "takes chances" is the most accurate wording. "Takes risks" describes it better.
Yes, it is a risky propostition. Take for example the scripture, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Unless all choose to repent, then God's will in this matter will not be done.
Jesus taught His disciples to pray in this manner, "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." So obviously God's will is not automatically being done on earth because of some kind of predestination. Again, man's will is a factor in the matter of God's will being done.
Is it such a disturbing idea to suppose that God wishes that all should come to repentance, and that the fulfilment of His will depends upon the choice of every human being?since this is the case, and if God really is a God that takes chances, then I simply can't get the visual out of my head of God "wringing his hands" hoping that His creations will make the correct decisions that ultimately result in the fulfillment of His will.
I believe that even in this respect, God's will shall be done. Given enough time in Gehenna (and God has all the time in the Universe), all people will eventually repent and submit.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_STEVE7150
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I believe that even in this respect, God's will shall be done. Given enough time in Gehenna (and God has all the time in the Universe), all people will eventually repent and submit.
You may be right Paidion, after all God is long suffering and patient and according to Moses "a watch in ther night" or 3 hours to God is like a thousand years to us.
A thought occurred to me, most believers are sure that God foreknew that Adam would disobey him but after Adam did disobey God , he was evicted from Eden so that he could'nt eat from the tree of life. That means the tree of life was already there, so why would it be there if God knew Adam would disobey?
You may be right Paidion, after all God is long suffering and patient and according to Moses "a watch in ther night" or 3 hours to God is like a thousand years to us.
A thought occurred to me, most believers are sure that God foreknew that Adam would disobey him but after Adam did disobey God , he was evicted from Eden so that he could'nt eat from the tree of life. That means the tree of life was already there, so why would it be there if God knew Adam would disobey?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Paidion, since you brought this topic up in the Calvinism thread with my post I will post here where this topic is already being discussed.
While you might have already responded to posts about these passages I'm about to quote I ask that you respond again here so I don't have to go back a re-read many pages of posts.
Please respond to these so I can consider you position:
Luke 22:34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."
How did Jesus know that? Peter hadn't made the choice yet. Still, Jesus knew the time (before the rooster crows) and the number of times (3) Peter would deny the Lord.
Deuteronomy 17:14 "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,'
How did God know that? I mean, that's a free will choice by man. Not only that but those men had these scriptures that warned them not to ask for a king.
How in Psalm 22 did God (or David) know that Jesus would have His hands and feet would be pierced, that they would cast lots for his garments, etc.
Remember that these as you say are free moral agents and can do as they will. How did God know they would be killing people by nailing them up. How did God know they would cast lots for garments, etc. They could have simply chose not to perform those customs hundreds of years before Christ.
How did Daniel predict so precisely what free moral agents would do in the future (Daniel 11 specifically) if God could have not idea who would do what? God couldn't control them because that would violate that presumed fact that we are free moral agents.
While you might have already responded to posts about these passages I'm about to quote I ask that you respond again here so I don't have to go back a re-read many pages of posts.
Please respond to these so I can consider you position:
Luke 22:34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."
How did Jesus know that? Peter hadn't made the choice yet. Still, Jesus knew the time (before the rooster crows) and the number of times (3) Peter would deny the Lord.
Deuteronomy 17:14 "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,'
How did God know that? I mean, that's a free will choice by man. Not only that but those men had these scriptures that warned them not to ask for a king.
How in Psalm 22 did God (or David) know that Jesus would have His hands and feet would be pierced, that they would cast lots for his garments, etc.
Remember that these as you say are free moral agents and can do as they will. How did God know they would be killing people by nailing them up. How did God know they would cast lots for garments, etc. They could have simply chose not to perform those customs hundreds of years before Christ.
How did Daniel predict so precisely what free moral agents would do in the future (Daniel 11 specifically) if God could have not idea who would do what? God couldn't control them because that would violate that presumed fact that we are free moral agents.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)