Hello Super Sola
I will let Steve Gregg and others challenge you on some of your thoughts, but it is well for me to first say that you will find the majority of regulars to this board are partial preterists and can be described even more precisely as amillennialists. Once you really know what the understanding of the partial preterist is and how that view can be supported by the Bible and history, then you will understand us better and hopefully not tend to be so blunt or harsh.
Full preterism is the belief that Jesus has already made His second coming and that belief is based on the very same references you have given. Partial preterism, however, insists that Jesus has yet to make His second coming.
I believe Steve Gregg will be able to make himself clear and he may find the posting he once made that tells exactly his view on Christ and His second coming.
Preterism's Achilles Heel
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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???Wow. All this color without a single reason why the preterist position is wrong.comical... fantasies... Hilarious... ludicrous... warped and absurb [sic] as those of the Watchtower... Utter nonsense...sound as a three-dollar bill... Pure error... Freak "exegesis"... absurd expositions... ridiculous...
I think "a simple reading" of the below statments in one of three of the non-apocalyptic portions of the book and one from the last chapter, will clear up a few things.It focuses on the last 3 and 1/2 years of this age, as any simple reading, despite the symbols in it, makes plain.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; (2000+yrs from now?) and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (2000+yrs at hand?)
Rev 1:7 (ESV) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him (who are dead for 2000+ yrs), and all tribes of the earth (land) will wail on account of him...
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly:(2000+ yrs from now quickly?) blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
No dispensationlists accept the plain reading of the plainest and most easily understood statements in the whole book of Revelation. It would seem, however, that they "attempt" to take the most apocalyptic portions literally. I have never understood this.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Derek
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
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_Super Sola Scriptura
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- Location: NC
The problem Derek, is not as you state it. The evidene we have putsw the book of Revelation way past 70AD. Once this is accepted, then the problem is to work out HOW these things must "shortly" come to pass. That is the "problem", and it isn't solved by concocting an historical fiction about revelation's date so preterism can be true. You can't so that!
Well, according to WHOSE perspective, God's our ours??? According to God, 1000 years is like one day. So it has only been TWO DAYS since this was penned.
You have another problem--the historical record shows how LONG it took for the book of Revelation to be unanimously received as canonical. Not only did you not address my point about how impractical and too late it was to give the book on a remote island in 67 AD, but you forget that the book was not even viewed by many as true, quite a few didn't even know of it, and so, HOW EFFECTIVE, if it was given to warn believers about 70AD, WAS THIS MOVE??? The date you give is too late anyway, and then even worse, the book doesn't get around due to its obscurity of origination, lack of modern ways to get it around, and when it does finally make the rounds, it takes a good 200 years to get the book offically in the canon!
This book COULD NEVER have been written in 66-7 AD for the purpose of preparing people for 70AD! It was written much later, and since it did in fact deal with the last 3 and 1/2 years of this age, the Lord was not too concerned or in too much of a hurry to make sure everyone even accepted this book right away, like they did Paul's letters or the gospels! He let the book's acceptance flounder for 200 years--TWO HUNDRED YEARS!
That is not the game-plan of a wise God gearing up his church for 70AD!
Check-mate.
The reason for the color is becasue the arguing of the Watchtower, the Adventists and Stuart are quite the same. I don't know how much you have studied Watchtower material, or dealt with them, like I have over the last 22 years, but I can tell you that Stuart's arguments are no better than theirs, and are every bit as contrived. Hence my colorful comments.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; (2000+yrs from now?) and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John
Well, according to WHOSE perspective, God's our ours??? According to God, 1000 years is like one day. So it has only been TWO DAYS since this was penned.
You have another problem--the historical record shows how LONG it took for the book of Revelation to be unanimously received as canonical. Not only did you not address my point about how impractical and too late it was to give the book on a remote island in 67 AD, but you forget that the book was not even viewed by many as true, quite a few didn't even know of it, and so, HOW EFFECTIVE, if it was given to warn believers about 70AD, WAS THIS MOVE??? The date you give is too late anyway, and then even worse, the book doesn't get around due to its obscurity of origination, lack of modern ways to get it around, and when it does finally make the rounds, it takes a good 200 years to get the book offically in the canon!
This book COULD NEVER have been written in 66-7 AD for the purpose of preparing people for 70AD! It was written much later, and since it did in fact deal with the last 3 and 1/2 years of this age, the Lord was not too concerned or in too much of a hurry to make sure everyone even accepted this book right away, like they did Paul's letters or the gospels! He let the book's acceptance flounder for 200 years--TWO HUNDRED YEARS!
That is not the game-plan of a wise God gearing up his church for 70AD!
Check-mate.
Quote:
comical... fantasies... Hilarious... ludicrous... warped and absurb [sic] as those of the Watchtower... Utter nonsense...sound as a three-dollar bill... Pure error... Freak "exegesis"... absurd expositions... ridiculous...
???Wow. All this color without a single reason why the preterist position is wrong
The reason for the color is becasue the arguing of the Watchtower, the Adventists and Stuart are quite the same. I don't know how much you have studied Watchtower material, or dealt with them, like I have over the last 22 years, but I can tell you that Stuart's arguments are no better than theirs, and are every bit as contrived. Hence my colorful comments.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Anonymous
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The book was not written to God. It was written to men, to whom a day is like 24hrs.Well, according to WHOSE perspective, God's our ours??? According to God, 1000 years is like one day. So it has only been TWO DAYS since this was penned.
If the book was written by John the apostle, and given to the seven churches to whom it was written by him, or one of his followers, I don't think they would have doubted it's authenticity. They didn't need to wait for some official church decree before accepting it.Not only did you not address my point about how impractical and too late it was to give the book on a remote island in 67 AD, but you forget that the book was not even viewed by many as true, quite a few didn't even know of it, and so, HOW EFFECTIVE, if it was given to warn believers about 70AD, WAS THIS MOVE??? The date you give is too late anyway, and then even worse, the book doesn't get around due to its obscurity of origination, lack of modern ways to get it around, and when it does finally make the rounds, it takes a good 200 years to get the book offically in the canon!
The book could have been given to these people six months before 70AD and they would have plenty of time to prepare. What would have hindered them? Waiting on it to be cannonized? Nothing was "cannonized" then (although many books/epistles were accepted) even if the book was written in 95AD. Again, I highly doubt that if the letter was delivered by John, or an associate of John, that people would have suspected it as inauthentic.This book COULD NEVER have been written in 66-7 AD for the purpose of preparing people for 70AD! It was written much later, and since it did in fact deal with the last 3 and 1/2 years of this age, the Lord was not too concerned or in too much of a hurry to make sure everyone even accepted this book right away, like they did Paul's letters or the gospels! He let the book's acceptance flounder for 200 years--TWO HUNDRED YEARS!
No offense bro, but that's just cheesy. We're not in competition around here. Just seeking truth from God's word.Check-mate.
The reason for the color is becasue the arguing of the Watchtower, the Adventists and Stuart are quite the same. I don't know how much you have studied Watchtower material, or dealt with them, like I have over the last 22 years, but I can tell you that Stuart's arguments are no better than theirs, and are every bit as contrived. Hence my colorful comments.
Are you aware that the J.W.'s are premil? Now what kind of argument would it be if I try to use guilt by association to show you wrong?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Derek
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
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_Super Sola Scriptura
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:58 pm
- Location: NC
The book was not written to God. It was written to men, to whom a day is like 24hrs.
You miss the point! The Apostle Peter brought up the 1000 year argument when discussing the apparent delay in the Lord's return! He taught us to view things from HIS perspective. So Revelation was only two days ago, and will be fulfilled quite soon.
Invisible coming in 70AD, 1844, or 1914--the arguments used, and the silly "exegesis" are the same. Stuart's arguments are no better than the Watchtowers or Miller.Are you aware that the J.W.'s are premil? Now what kind of argument would it be if I try to use guilt by association to show you wrong?
So just how did the letter get to the churches so fast, since John was being held on a penal colony?
And just what did what Rome was going to do in Jerusalem have to do with the Christians in Laodicea, Philadelphia, Ephesus, Symrna, etc???
WHY WAS NOT A MESSAGE GIVEN TO THE CHURCHES OF JERUSALEM???
Because Revelation has nothing to do with what happened in Jerusalem in 70AD. What a MONUMENTAL OVERSIGHT on the part of the Lord to not even address the churches where, if you're view is right, all the hellish things were about to happen!!!!
Your view continues to make the Lord look foolish and a poor planner! You really need to think about this.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Recall that the church in Jerusalem received a prophetic word, allowing them to escape. Letter not needed.
BTW, I find it curious that you so loudly proclaim that the book *could not* have been written before 70A.D. Umm...why exactly? 2000 years later, seems like it'd be hard to pin down the date of publication. What method did you use to date it?
Recall that "scholarly consensus" many times must be taken with a grain of salt. All scholars are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
BTW, I find it curious that you so loudly proclaim that the book *could not* have been written before 70A.D. Umm...why exactly? 2000 years later, seems like it'd be hard to pin down the date of publication. What method did you use to date it?
Recall that "scholarly consensus" many times must be taken with a grain of salt. All scholars are created equal, but some are more equal than others.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Super Sola, should we not add the dispensationalists with their invisible pre-trib rapture to those you list above? The world doesn't see Jesus coming; thos "left behind" just notice that "millions disappear"!Invisible coming in 70AD, 1844, or 1914--the arguments used, and the silly "exegesis" are the same. Stuart's arguments are no better than the Watchtowers or Miller.
In Matthew 24:26,27 Jesus said concerning His coming:
So, if they say to you, ‘Lo, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘Lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lighting comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
No Jesus won't come in some invisible rapture. Rather when He comes, "every eye shall see Him". Just as the lighting from the sun (as it rises in the east and sets in the west) is visible to everyone, so shall the Son of God in His second coming be visible to all.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_AARONDISNEY
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I think that S.S.S. makes a great point in that if it were written in 66 or 67 AD and then it had to be delivered to these folks in Asia minor, just to tell them of the events that would happen in Jerusalem (quite a great distance away) in absolutely no time by the time they received the letter... it does seem a bit pointless that the recipients would even have any use whatsoever for the letter.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Christopher
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Hi Aaron and S.S.S.,
I'm only speculating as to God's purpose for giving the churches this epistle. But as someone who leans partial-preterist in regards to the majority of Revelation, I don’t think that the book was necessarily written to warn the churches to “prepare” for the impending disaster upon Jerusalem. I think it’s very possible that the book was primarily meant to exhort them to remain faithful to Christ and even call some (or most) of them to repentance. There are only two churches (Smyrna and Philadelphia) that Jesus didn’t have anything bad to say about which would indicate that most of the churches were backsliding and needed some rebuking.
The apocalyptic description of the destruction of Jerusalem may have been meant to serve as a warning to them that God punishes unfaithfulness, even those who were His chosen people.
There are many such warnings and exhortations to these churches in chapters 2 and 3:
Rev 2:5-6
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.
NKJV
Rev 2:10-11
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
NKJV
Rev 2:16-17
16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
NKJV
Rev 2:24-26
25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--
NKJV
Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
NKJV
Rev 3:11
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
NKJV
Rev 3:19
Therefore be zealous and repent.
NKJV
Rev 3:20-22
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
NKJV
The prophesy of the fall of Jerusalem depicted in the chapters following would serve as a graphic illustration of God’s wrath on those who are unfaithful and adulterous toward Him. As the reports came in that the prophesy was being fulfilled, I think it would demonstrate to the churches that God’s threats are not empty. This would tend to add gravity to the exhortations of Jesus in chapters 2 and 3.
In the closing chapter, it says:
Rev 22:7-8
7 Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
NKJV
What does it mean to be “keeping” the words of the prophesy of this book? I would take that to mean heeding the exhortations Jesus gave in the book. Repent and hold fast (remain faithful).
Paul said:
Rom 11:20-22
Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God:
NKJV
This book shows that if God would remove the “lampstand” of Israel (who were once His chosen people), He may just as quickly judge those in the church who are unfaithful also.
This does not require any time to prepare for a pending Roman invasion, it simply requires that they repent and stay faithful to Jesus. Circulating the letter to the other churches not listed in the letter would be a valuable warning to them also. It doesn’t matter when it gets there, only that it gets there.
Just my humble opinion.
Lord bless.
I think that S.S.S. makes a great point in that if it were written in 66 or 67 AD and then it had to be delivered to these folks in Asia minor, just to tell them of the events that would happen in Jerusalem (quite a great distance away) in absolutely no time by the time they received the letter... it does seem a bit pointless that the recipients would even have any use whatsoever for the letter.
I'm only speculating as to God's purpose for giving the churches this epistle. But as someone who leans partial-preterist in regards to the majority of Revelation, I don’t think that the book was necessarily written to warn the churches to “prepare” for the impending disaster upon Jerusalem. I think it’s very possible that the book was primarily meant to exhort them to remain faithful to Christ and even call some (or most) of them to repentance. There are only two churches (Smyrna and Philadelphia) that Jesus didn’t have anything bad to say about which would indicate that most of the churches were backsliding and needed some rebuking.
The apocalyptic description of the destruction of Jerusalem may have been meant to serve as a warning to them that God punishes unfaithfulness, even those who were His chosen people.
There are many such warnings and exhortations to these churches in chapters 2 and 3:
Rev 2:5-6
5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place--unless you repent.
NKJV
Rev 2:10-11
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
NKJV
Rev 2:16-17
16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
NKJV
Rev 2:24-26
25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--
NKJV
Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
NKJV
Rev 3:11
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
NKJV
Rev 3:19
Therefore be zealous and repent.
NKJV
Rev 3:20-22
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
NKJV
The prophesy of the fall of Jerusalem depicted in the chapters following would serve as a graphic illustration of God’s wrath on those who are unfaithful and adulterous toward Him. As the reports came in that the prophesy was being fulfilled, I think it would demonstrate to the churches that God’s threats are not empty. This would tend to add gravity to the exhortations of Jesus in chapters 2 and 3.
In the closing chapter, it says:
Rev 22:7-8
7 Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
NKJV
What does it mean to be “keeping” the words of the prophesy of this book? I would take that to mean heeding the exhortations Jesus gave in the book. Repent and hold fast (remain faithful).
Paul said:
Rom 11:20-22
Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God:
NKJV
This book shows that if God would remove the “lampstand” of Israel (who were once His chosen people), He may just as quickly judge those in the church who are unfaithful also.
This does not require any time to prepare for a pending Roman invasion, it simply requires that they repent and stay faithful to Jesus. Circulating the letter to the other churches not listed in the letter would be a valuable warning to them also. It doesn’t matter when it gets there, only that it gets there.
Just my humble opinion.
Lord bless.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32