The Pledge during Worship

[Guest]

Thank you, as ever, for your response!

No problem and thanks for yours.

The difference, it seems, is that celebrating Christ is essential to the Christian faith community, while celebrating America is not.

But if both coincide with the same message what is the harm? If you sing God bless America in church is that a bad thing especially in light of passages that tell you to pray for your leaders and nation?

From a Jewish perspective: you tell what a nation stands for by what it does, not by what it says. America stands for materialism and pleasure-seeking in the face of basic human need, sexual permissiveness, the destruction of human life in the fetal stage, and the protection of satanic worship and literature. Of course, some would call these things liberty.

From a Christian perspective: should I condemn all of Israel based on what Israel does?

Just because someone abuses their liberty for their own selfish gain doesn't make liberty an evil thing. It makes what they do evil.

It is relevant to ask what the benefit is to the many, and whether that benefit is sufficient to discount the attendant harm. There are plenty of secular opportunities to pledge allegiance to America, and there is no Christian imperative (that I am aware of) to pledge allegiance to a secular power. On the other hand, reaching out to people - especially the marginalized and abused - with the light of Christ is a Christian imperative. It seems questionable to jeopardize the imperative value for an extraneous one.

Well let's bring that same thought to Christianity. Should we preach Christianity to a secular nation that has been abused by people claiming to be Christian? Why not just wait for them to come to church?

Also, if one doesn't like patriotism in church they do have the freedom to attend a church that doesn't do such a thing. I think living your life trying not to offend everyone and apologizing for all the evil done by those in the name of whatever you believe in, has led us down a road of compromise and political correctness.

Now I am not advocating shoving one's belief down someone's throat, but we live in a country where we have the freedom to express our beliefs and I see no problem in celebrating that freedom by recognizing the country we live in inside the church.

On a side note...I usually find that when someone is Anti-American it is not because they are against what America stands for, but for what it has become (like the points you mentioned above). The same thing can be said of Christianity (being hypocrites, always wanting money, etc.).

Thanks again for your response. Take care.

[Guest]

Schoel wrote:

IMHO, the church is at its best when it is detached from the government.

I'll go even further than that. Historically speaking, the church is at it's best when it's persecuted by the government.

"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" - Tertullian

[Guest]

ain't that the truth! great observation, C.

TK

[Guest]

I think its strange having a flag or saluting IN CHURCH...

[Guest]

Several of you have given your opinion on flags and pledges and are eagerly avoiding Matt's other question. Should he, as a teacher, broach this subject in the assembly and, if so, what should he say? He's already told you in other threads that he has been willing to bring up unpalatable subjects and most assuredly he is willing to be thrown out on his ear if he believes God is leading him to teach an unpopular lesson. Come now! Answer his question rather than diverting the thread to discussions of liberty and America's evils. You have been willing to make your points here. Would you so quickly do so in his congregation?

livingink

[Guest]

matt should do exactly what the Spirit leads him to do.

No more and no less.

I am sure matt would agree.

TK

[Guest]

livingink,

I believed I answered that in my first post. Is there something I need to clarify further?

[Guest]

Yes, what would you plan to say if you were going to teach this from a scriptural standpoint? As I said, the Spirit often leads me to be quiet. But, at times, I was also lead to be very vocal and to bring up topics that were unpopular or misunderstood. And, eventually I GOT THROWN OUT ON MY EAR! ouch! So, look at your previous posts and those of others and suggest scriptures that would help Matt make his points.

respectfully,

livingink

[Guest]

At the risk of being off track here, I prefer patriotism, saluting the flag, and especially politics be kepy totally out of church.

It is a blessing to live in this country, but as Kaufmanphillips pointed out, perfect it is not, nor is it a Christian nation. Personally I think the best form of government is a monarchy, provided you have the right king (hint hint).

We pledge allegience to Christ in baptism. Seems like some feel they ought to pledge allegience to their country again and again. Why? Did they not mean it the first time? How many times do we publically pledge allegience to Christ?

Opinion worth price charged .

[Guest]

We pledge allegiance to Christ in baptism. Seems like some feel they ought to pledge allegiance to their country again and again. Why? Did they not mean it the first time? How many times do we public ally pledge allegiance to Christ?

Good point Homor, my two kids attend a private Christian school and are required to pledge allegiance to the flag every morning. I doubt that either of my boys (5 & 7) understand fully what it means to make a pledge. It seems to me that modern American Christianity is synonymous with patriotism.

I thank God that I was born American and have the opportunities I have been given but that is different than say that this is a country under God. I don't see many ways in which American society reflects Christianity or God at all. IMHO.

Robin