Insurance - is it good stewardship or lack of trust in God?

[Guest]

To say that not having health insurance is equal to trusting God completely and having insurance is equal to lacking faith in God is an awfully big stretch.

My problem with the whole insurance thing, when I was really thinking about it a lot, is that it seemed to me that I was saying (if I were to get insurance), "I trust God, but just in case He doesn't provide the means for my healing, whether it be a miraculous healing or the means to pay my expenses, I am going to pay these folks (probably pagans in a secular institution) to cover me".

This may not be the case if insurance were God's provision for us. Maybe you could see it as Him providing the means for you to pay them so they'll help. For my conscience, however, it always seems to come back to, "if God doesn't provide, they will." Others may not feel that way.

I realize that other brothers and sisters don't see it the way I do, and that's ok. I am not judging anyone.

[Guest]

Well, I must be the contrarian again.

I am astonished that any Christian would think there is any virtue in not having insurance when it is available to you and you are able to pay the premiums.

Consider the first insurance program I know of, one blessed by God. God showed Pharoah in a dream what was about to happen. Pharoah needed the dream interpreted and Joseph informed him that there would be a terrible famine in the land, but there was time, seven plentiful years during which they should prepare. Joseph said they should collect 20% of the produce of the land from the people (insurance premiums!) each year and store it (pooling resources for coming disaster). When the famine came, there was food for all, "in all the land of Egypt there was bread". But note in Genesis 41:56 the people had to buy the stored grain! Imagine the outcry if a modern insurance company tried to pull that off!

Seems to me this was an insurance program, pure and simple. According to some of the reasoning on this thread, Joseph should have told Pharoah to simply trust God to provide during the famine, to do otherwise would demonstrate weak faith.

Paul informed us we should bear one another's burdens and in practically the same breath said we should bear our own burdens. The meaning is we are to help the person with the unbearable load, while not bothering others with our own burdens if we are able to bear them. Through insurance, we participate in paying for the heavy burdens of others, who assist us in a time of need. Sure, the insurance company makes a profit, but "the workman is worthy of his hire".

The failure of healthy individuals to buy insurance is unfair to others not so fortunate, causing their premiums to be higher than they would otherwise be. The more people paying premiums, the lower they can be.

You may be young and healthy or have no health problems. Our grandaughter didn't either until she had a ruptured appendix that was not diagnosed for days resulting in being on life support and multiple surgeries, with 12 weeks of hospitalization. One bill (not the total cost) was 150 pages totalling over $700,000! A year later she had surgery again. Thank God she is well and our son had insurance! Our son had insurance through his employer; his only cost was a small deductible. Praise God for insurance!

You who have no insurance have no assurance a medical disaster will not come upon you. You say you are a Christian and trust God? So do we, and so does our son, daughter-in-law, and grandaughter. Yet it happened. If a similar disaster came on you, who would pay? You would be taken care of, the hospital must do so, but the hospital has no money other than the money it gets from patients who can pay or their insurance. So in a disaster, your bill will be paid by sick people, or other people through their insurance premiums. And make no mistake, company insurance is actually part of the employee's wages.

So I ask, is not having insurance really a virtuous Christian thing to do if you can afford it?

[_Steve]

Hi Homer,

I think the arrangement in Egypt was not so much analogous to modern insurance as it is to modern savings accounts. When you pay insurance premiums, you are hedging yourself against disasters that may never come, and you thus lose what you have invested if there is no disaster. Joseph knew exactly what was coming, and knew it with certainty. He knew when it would come, and how much to save up in preparation for it. There was no gamble in his actions, as there is in paying insurance premiums. This seems more like saving-up in advance for a predictable retirement or for a planned future purchase, in my opinion.

I also think that your application of Galatians 6:5 is missing Paul's point. Though the words are identical in the KJV, the words for "burden" in verses 2 and 5 are not the same in the Greek. They may be synonyms, carrying the same meaning, but they may be referring to different types of "burdens." Verses 3 and 4 stand between these two statements, and seem to change the subject and the import of verse 5 from what was being considered in verse 2.

It really does seem that your son's insurance (provided as a part of his job benefits) proved to be the provision of God in his case. God's provision can take other forms as well, as in my own case.

I would not allow the costs of any illness of mine to fall upon unwilling parties. If I cannot afford hospitalization, I will not utilize it. If it is not affordable to me, it does not seem to lie within the options that God has provided (since I will not incur debt), and I must look for the will of God in other options, including, possibly, death. It is no tragedy for me to die, but it would be unthinkable to rob the poor in order to escape death. Remember, in my peculiar philosophy, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

If having insurance is what God leads others to do, you won't hear me complaining about them. I have to follow my conscience. No one else has to agree.

[Guest]

I am astonished that any Christian would think there is any virtue in not having insurance when it is available to you and you are able to pay the premiums.

I am not aware of saying that there was a "virtue" in not having it, only that it would be against my conscience to do so.

According to some of the reasoning on this thread, Joseph should have told Pharoah to simply trust God to provide during the famine, to do otherwise would demonstrate weak faith.

It seems though, in your example, that the coming disaster was shown miraculously in a dream to Pharoah. For him to "trust God" would be for him to act according to that dream and Joseph's instruction. God had "shown him (Joseph) all this, there is none so discerning and wise as him" (vs.41).

In this example they knew, having been told by God, that disaster was immanent. This is far different from paying an insurace company "just in case".

Paul informed us we should bear one another's burdens and in practically the same breath said we should bear our own burdens. The meaning is we are to help the person with the unbearable load, while not bothering others with our own burdens if we are able to bear them. Through insurance, we participate in paying for the heavy burdens of others, who assist us in a time of need..."

This is why I joined Samaritan Ministries. This, aside from the last sentence, is exactly what it's about. The only difference is that it is individual Christians that help each other instead of unbelievers or through a company.

The failure of healthy individuals to buy insurance is unfair to others not so fortunate, causing their premiums to be higher than they would otherwise be. The more people paying premiums, the lower they can be.

When did insurance become a social responsibility? I highly doubt that these companies are hurtin for money. The premiums are high so they can make money. It's a business. They help people because they are in the business of helping people.

This may not be true of every individual in insurance companies (obviously not of the Christians in this thread), but I think everyone would agree that if there was no money to be made there would be no insurance companies. Not that making money is bad, it's just that perhaps you should look there for lower premiums before blaming those that choose to not have insurance.

But again, I think it is a matter of conscience. I really didn't mean to make it sound like a virtue or anything. I was just sharing my thoughts about it.

[Guest]

Greetings Steve, et al,

When you pay insurance premiums, you are hedging yourself against disasters that may never come, and you thus lose what you have invested if there is no disaster.

There was no gamble in his actions, as there is in paying insurance premiums.

I fail to see how this is losing anything or gambling in any form. I see it as helping others to pay for their care which they may otherwise be unable to afford. I have no problem with the insurance company making a small profit, percent wise. Insurance is a system of shared burden.

Interestingly, an employee of a local hospital told me something like 40% of all bills go unpaid with the cost being transferred to the bills of other patients. Healthy people who do not use the hospital nor have insurance contribute nothing to the cost.

It is fine to say you would forego treatment even if it cost your life if you are unable to pay, but what if you are unconscious and someone else has taken you to the hospital? Or if you were out of your mind, delirious, with horrible suffering such as I have never before seen in our grandaughter's case, you would be unable to refuse treatment and any sane person would see that you got help. And if you could refuse help, would you do so for your child or grandchild?

This whole controversy reminds me of the local group who refuse all medical help and believe we must depend only on the prayers and anointing of the elders. They have two children dead of treatable causes.

I think the words of the old gospel song "He Set Me Free" have it right: "Daily I'm working, I'm praying too and glory to God I'm going through". We work, we pray, God gets all the credit. All healing is from God. Before our grandaughter's emergency surgery the chief surgeon made it plain she was in great peril. Our pastor prayed with us and the team of surgeons. After surgery the chief surgeon came back and thanked us for praying, for calling on God.

Life is a gift from God and I believe we are accountable for the care of the gift, especially those He has placed in our care.

I also think that your application of Galatians 6:5 is missing Paul's point. Though the words are identical in the KJV, the words for "burden" in verses 2 and 5 are not the same in the Greek. They may be synonyms, carrying the same meaning, but they may be referring to different types of "burdens."

That is the point I was trying to make. Two different Greek words translated "burden" in English. One Greek word referring to a load too heavy for a man to bear and the other to an ordinary burden.

This is why I joined Samaritan Ministries. This, aside from the last sentence, is exactly what it's about. The only difference is that it is individual Christians that help each other instead of unbelievers or through a company.

Samaritan Ministries sounds like a great idea but, although I may be misunderstanding your view, what's the difference in depending on unbelievers to grow our food or make our clothes, which may be made by mistreated people?

[Guest]

Again I will point out that I am biased on this issue do to my career, but I do not see why people see our health care and deliver system as a negative. I could argue that it exists do to the compassion of our Christian culture, or what was once a Christian culture. As a country we spend billions and billions to see that our sick and needy and taken care of. Before Christianity this type of medical access was never available. We instituted laws that require medical care regardless of a persons ability to pay. It is a fact that generally most people will never use health care to the extent that it will bankrupt them (only about 15%-10% will) however I pay into a system that has provided for many who cannot afford health care yet utilize it to the extent that I probably never will. for example, when illegals cross our borders in need of health care they are treated and the hospital are never reimbursed. We fund our health care system privately and it supplies the funds to make sure that care is available to all in their time of need (whether they depend on God or not).

[Guest]

Steve said:

When you pay insurance premiums, you are hedging yourself against disasters that may never come, and you thus lose what you have invested if there is no disaster.

I see what you are saying here, but I also see where you cannot use this as a blanket statement. With my last birth I had to have a C-section. Because both of my babies have been stuck (the second worse than the first, thus the C-section) I will need to have a C-section for future babies. One hundred years ago, my baby and I (this last time) would have died.

We would like to have several children and insurance is the only way we can do so. The bill that our insurance took the last time was around 18,000 just for the hospital (not including the doctors visits which were about 2000). As we are currently looking at insurance options before we get pregnant again, we would much rather pay 200 - 300 a month for the next 12 months so that we do not have an astronomical bill when I have another baby.

We have considered the Christian pseudo insurance (and probably will get it for Ryan and the kids), but it only has a 4000 maturnity benefit and that's not enough to cover the C-section.

I could say that the Lord will provide the money, but why would I burden the church with $20,000 when we can pay $3000 - $4000 in advance through insurance and have it completely taken care of? Or even if we did have $20,000, why would I pay it when I could pay MUCH less ahead of time?

I agree with not trusting in insurance, but IMO, making blanket statements about it might not be best.

[Guest]

Through insurance, we participate in paying for the heavy burdens of others, who assist us in a time of need. Sure, the insurance company makes a profit, but "the workman is worthy of his hire".

Don't insurance premiums help pay for immoral or unethical medical practices by other's purchasing medical insurance?
For example: abortion, in-vitro fertilization, certain methods of birth control, etc

[Guest]

Don't insurance premiums help pay for immoral or unethical medical practices by other's purchasing medical insurance?
For example: abortion, in-vitro fertilization, certain methods of birth control, etc

paying taxes contributes to these things as well.

By the way, I am coverd by Providence Health Plans, and they do not pay for abortions due to their Catholic history.

[_Steve]

Quote:
"paying taxes contributes to these things as well"


True, and on these grounds there asre some Christians who are tax-protesters and withhold their tax payments. However, whatever one may decide about taxes, they are demanded by law, whereas insurance is strictly voluntary. It is good that you have found an ethical provider, however.