Unity and the Early Church

[Guest]

Hi Aaron,

Watch out for us li'l ol' ladies...we have radios too. You never know, she may be listening to Dr. Jeremiah already and perhaps she has formed her own opinions. Even if she hasn't, aren't you discounting the work of the Holy Spirit in her life? You said that she lives by the leading of the Spirit, don't you believe that He would also lead her into truth?

Aaron, you have a characteristic that I lack. You seem to see things as black or white, one side of the coin or the other. I seem to always see both sides of the coin at the same time. There are only a few things that I can be really passionate about; praise God that He's one of them! But, many things about God are still not fixed in my mind. For instance I'm equally intrigued by Openness Theology and Calvinist Theology (it's just such a tidy, closed system!) But for me that doesn't lead to confusion, it just spurs me to read and study more about God. Oh, and to appreciate and praise Him for the fact that He is so vast, so "other" than me, and so wonderful.

Aaron, I don't think I've heard how you came to know the Lord, whether it was later in life or if you were raised in a Christian home and attended church all your life. I attended church all my life. When I was young, physically as well as spiritually - I'm talking about early teens here, I believed that church involved a lot of words that no one actually believed. There were words about trusting the Lord, yet people worried about everything. There were words about obeying the Lord, but I saw a lot of disobedience. There was supposed to be joy, peace and patience, but I didn't see much of that, either. And what of love for the brethren?

My church was in the downtown area of our city. There were some other churches on the same block, but they were of different denominations. We never, ever mixed with them. (I actually got yelled at one time for parking on the Nazarene side of the street! Can you imagine, even the street was divided!) Our youth group would sometimes get together with youth groups from other churches in our denomination which were in different cities, but you would think we were the only Christians in our own city. I bet the idea was to avoid confusing the young people with the beliefs of the other groups. Personally, I would have preferred to have had real love demonstrated by putting differences aside and working together for God's kingdom. That's what I needed to see, but never got the chance to.

I want to know God. I want to know everything about God. I'm not worried about getting things wrong because I trust God to lead me to the truth. You, Aaron, seem to have arrived at the truth already and don't want to hear anything else. That's ok for you, I guess, but why do you want to restrict everyone else? That little old lady might be straving for some spiritual food.

[Guest]

Aaron, I don't think I've heard how you came to know the Lord, whether it was later in life or if you were raised in a Christian home and attended church all your life.

I grew up in the Church of God (Cleveland, TN based) but never really lived for the Lord and going to Church was more often than not just something I felt I should do because it was the right thing to do. I then moved over to Indiana (from southern Illinois) and attended another church (the one I attend now) of the same denomination. I saw (and still do see) the Lord really working in the lives of the people here. Then I realized that I wanted that. I wanted to really know the Lord. In March of 1999 I placed my life and trust in Jesus' hands.....no turnin' back!!!

My church was in the downtown area of our city. There were some other churches on the same block, but they were of different denominations. We never, ever mixed with them. (I actually got yelled at one time for parking on the Nazarene side of the street! Can you imagine, even the street was divided!) Our youth group would sometimes get together with youth groups from other churches in our denomination which were in different cities, but you would think we were the only Christians in our own city. I bet the idea was to avoid confusing the young people with the beliefs of the other groups. Personally, I would have preferred to have had real love demonstrated by putting differences aside and working together for God's kingdom. That's what I needed to see, but never got the chance to.

Michelle,
this is not a point I'm disputing. I think that Christians no matter what denomination (so long as it is truly a Christian denomination) should be unified. I do feel a unity with my Baptist, Nazarene, etc. etc. brothers and sisters. However I have come to different conclusions from the Word of God regarding many things and choose to gather with those of my same convictions at church. But that doesn't mean I shun all others. I went to a non-denominational church that has some different beliefs than my own just about 3 weeks ago and enjoyed the fellowship and stood around and talked with many members of that Church that I didn't even know for about 40 minutes after the service was over.

I seem to be getting the reputation as one that thinks "It's my way or the highway" - I wish people weren't seeing me that way - that's not my attitude. But I do think that if you have vastly different conclusions about important Christian issues it's best not to cause contention because of them and confusion to lesser studied up members.

You, Aaron, seem to have arrived at the truth already and don't want to hear anything else. That's ok for you, I guess, but why do you want to restrict everyone else? That little old lady might be straving for some spiritual food.

First off, I do think that the truth is in the Word of God. If what is taught varies from that - yeah - I want nothing to do with it. I don't have to know the ins and outs of all the wrong doctrine to know right doctrine. I don't have to know that the Yankees didn't win the World Series last year to know that the White Sox did!! The truth is all you need, why muddle it up with the false.

Secondly - who in the world am I trying to restrict? If they want to know why people believe the wrong way and their justification for doing so they can do like I do and learn about it. They aren't at Church to learn false doctrine, they are there to learn truth.

And that little old lady that I'm talking about is walking with the Lord, she loves the Lord, the Lord is the center of her life....I don't think a different bunch of people going back and forth (such as on here) about every Biblical issue under the sun is gonna be better spiritual food than the time she spends with the Lord, just enjoying Him and following His Spirit.

[Guest]

I grew up in the Church of God (Cleveland, TN based) but never really lived for the Lord and going to Church was more often than not just something I felt I should do because it was the right thing to do. I then moved over to Indiana (from southern Illinois) and attended another church (the one I attend now) of the same denomination. I saw (and still do see) the Lord really working in the lives of the people here. Then I realized that I wanted that. I wanted to really know the Lord. In March of 1999 I placed my life and trust in Jesus' hands.....no turnin' back!!!

Praise God!

this is not a point I'm disputing. I think that Christians no matter what denomination (so long as it is truly a Christian denomination) should be unified. I do feel a unity with my Baptist, Nazarene, etc. etc. brothers and sisters. However I have come to different conclusions from the Word of God regarding many things and choose to gather with those of my same convictions at church. But that doesn't mean I shun all others. I went to a non-denominational church that has some different beliefs than my own just about 3 weeks ago and enjoyed the fellowship and stood around and talked with many members of that Church that I didn't even know for about 40 minutes after the service was over.

I seem to be getting the reputation as one that thinks "It's my way or the highway" - I wish people weren't seeing me that way - that's not my attitude. But I do think that if you have vastly different conclusions about important Christian issues it's best not to cause contention because of them and confusion to lesser studied up members.

OK, I'll try not to see you that way. I agree that it's best not to cause contention because it's unchristian. I'm not so sure about the confusion part.

First off, I do think that the truth is in the Word of God. If what is taught varies from that - yeah - I want nothing to do with it. I don't have to know the ins and outs of all the wrong doctrine to know right doctrine. I don't have to know that the Yankees didn't win the World Series last year to know that the White Sox did!! The truth is all you need, why muddle it up with the false.

The baseball metaphor is a good one! There's no question that the White Sox won the series last year. What about this year? The Dodgers just clinched their division; will they go all the way? I don't think so because they've been so inconsistent this year. And how do you feel about the doping scandals? Have they ruined baseball forever? Pete Rose was in my city this past week. Should he be banned from the Hall of Fame forever? See, there are some things that are hard and fast and some things that can be bandied around.

Jesus is Lord. Jesus is God and has always been (just in case Jesusfollower is still reading here.) He died for our sins and rose again on the third day. No question about those. When and how he's coming back? What is the nature of His soveriegnty? How do you explain foreknowlege? Debatable. And interesting.

Secondly - who in the world am I trying to restrict? If they want to know why people believe the wrong way and their justification for doing so they can do like I do and learn about it. They aren't at Church to learn false doctrine, they are there to learn truth.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood something you said in the previous post:

I thought of an older lady, as I read your post, that attends church with me. She has served the Lord for many decades and is pleasant as can be and lives by the leading of the Spirit. She is not incredibly educated in every false doctrine, but she knows the Lord and follows Him. Introducing wrong doctrine into her life would not help her at all IMHO, I believe she would outright reject Calvinism right away because she knows the loving God she serves.

I made an inference that you meant that no one should mention or try to explain Calvinism to her because it would be unprofitable to her. I kinda missed the last sentence where you said you believed that she would reject the theology because of her experience. But come to think of it, why, if she has a strong opposing belief, would it be unhelpful for her to learn about what the opposition believes? Again, I'm infering here, but do you think she would become confused? No, surely not because you said she would reject Calvinism. Aaron, you sort of have me confused. Maybe that's why I got the impression that you were a "my way or the highway" kind of guy. I was confused. Would it have been better to never have discussed it?

And that little old lady that I'm talking about is walking with the Lord, she loves the Lord, the Lord is the center of her life....I don't think a different bunch of people going back and forth (such as on here) about every Biblical issue under the sun is gonna be better spiritual food than the time she spends with the Lord, just enjoying Him and following His Spirit.

No kidding!! But I'm tellin' you, Aaron, little old ladies have a lot more depth than you think!

As always, I enjoy discussing with you. Hopefully I haven't bored everyone to death.

[_Steve]

Aaron,

You wrote:
"I have come to different conclusions from the Word of God regarding many things and choose to gather with those of my same convictions at church. But that doesn't mean I shun all others."

and

"I seem to be getting the reputation as one that thinks "It's my way or the highway" - I wish people weren't seeing me that way - that's not my attitude. But I do think that if you have vastly different conclusions about important Christian issues it's best not to cause contention because of them and confusion to lesser studied up members."


You are indeed confusing. You say you prefer to worship with those who share your convictions, but you don't shun others. This does not compute. If you don't shun others (and you visit their churches), why would you not like to worship with them in "your" church? And if you don't want your worshiping community (church) to include those who disagree with you, what is the attraction to you in visiting other churches? And if you don't mind people of differing opinions visiting your church, but do not wish to extend to them the respect of hearing them express their opinions, you are not really welcoming them into your group as full brethren, but only as potential converts to your group's way of thinking, who must be sure not to fully participate in any theological discussions until they "come around."

These statements do not help us see you as anything other than a "my way or the highway" kind of guy, with reference to your church and your pulpit.

I find the following statement particularly confusing, in the context of this thread's subject matter: "...it's best not to cause contention because of [different viewpoints] and confusion to lesser studied up members."

None of the people here who have disagreed with your position believe in "contention" or in "confusion." You seem to have a very negative view of the maturity level of your own church (you may be right about it, but if you are, it is truly tragic and something that you should desire to see it grow out of). The idea that hearing more than one view brings contention is so foreign to me that I can hardly conceive of it, other than in the context of a bunch of spitritually arrogant babes. As Paul said, contention and division over pet teachers or their doctrines is the mark that the church is immature and carnal (1 Cor.3:1ff). This certainly is not the necessary and inevitable state of the Christian community.

As for the "confusion," as I have mentioned previously, young Christians (or old) do not have to be "confused" as a result of hearing different viewpoints. They can simply remain undecided. This is an option that you have not personally discovered, as you have pointed out in posts several months ago: remember, you were certain about dispensationalism when it was all you had heard. Then you heard about amillennialism and preterism, and you tended to change your mind. Then, in later discussions with your pastor, you became confused, and took shelter back in the view of the denomination, even though you were still quite impressed with some of the preterist arguments, which you still could not refute.

Your response to hearing different views has not been anything like what I would recommend to Christians in your position. You are, as Michelle said, "black and white." You are not comfortable with unresolved possibilities about disputed things, so, in the midst of a flurry of arguments that you cannot immediately understand or process, you are content to take the most familiar view as "white" and see all others as "black"—at least black enough to label them "false teaching" and to exclude them from the ears of those who sit under the teaching in your church. If everyone takes such an unnuanced approach to understanding the truth, the church will certainly never grow an inch from its present juvenility.

What you, and any maturing Christian, could do, would be to say, "I am hearing impressive arguments from both sides. I must not decide which I believe until I have been able to see where the fault lies in all of the arguments for the side I reject. As long as I cannot find any flaws in some of the arguments of the other position, I have to consider that that other view may turn out to be correct, but, since it has no immediate impact on my life and relationships with other Christians, I am not compelled to take any firm position on this issue immediately. I, and my brethren, may never come to complete certainty on some of these disputed points, but that very fact means that I must not await complete agreement before entering into full fellowship with Christ's body (not just the little theological ghetto of my choice). In the meantime, if the undecided issues are of any interest to me and the brethren, nothing could be better than for us all to be exposed to the very best scriptural case that can be brought forward for each viewpoint. This certainly is the most responsible and humble way, before God, to be a seeker of His truth."

You talk about wanting to avoid confusing the "lesser-studied" Christians in your church. Don't you understand that they are "lesser-studied" (to a very large extent) because they have allowed their leaders to do all the thinking for them, and they have not been forced to wrestle with biblical material in such a way as would increase their biblical literacy? Must "lesser-studied" Christians be forever doomed, by the policies of the church, to remain in their ignorance? I am not content to allow there to be an illiterate caste in the church, who depend upon the educated (and narrow-minded) elite for their understanding of God and the Gospel.

[_Allyn]

Aaron, I am not being wishy washy. I am a little (maybe alot) like Michelle in that I see the colors of the rainbow. I am not one who restricts but I am secure and content in my convictions as they stand today and so am not threatened by views I might otherwise take exception to. I say Today because I have improved on my understanding as I have matured in faith and thus have discarded my otherwise weaker views. I am constantly growing and thus my conviction evolves.
However, I believe I also understand your desire to keep the purity of the Gospel well secured. I do believe we believers have a responsibility to maintain that purity within the local body if we are going to be effective ambassadors of Christ. I understand and have experienced division within the body. I have seen the results of it - both good and bad. Therefore I am more certain of this probability if we do not guard ourselves. We can guard ourselves only by one way. It does not come from a testimony, nor a feeling of the heart but by emmersion into God's Word and meditation upon it. Generally I see no real gain in allowing one from another view (not another Gospel) preach from the pulpit of a group wich does not hold to that view. but again, I am not personally offended by it. I do think, though, that there is a season for such things. It is up to the mature leadership of a fellowship to advance such things if they see fit.

[Guest]

just a quick observation..

it seems in many local churches (likely including the one i attend) that there is an "unspoken agreement" not to bring up potentially controversial theological subjects, out of either respect or desire not to stir up dissension. its kind of like the idea that "in mixed company you shouldnt discuss religion or politics" has carried over into the local church. for this reason, i think as a practical matter, the problems raised by Aaron hardly ever occur. for e.g., I attend a non-calvinist denomination, but the pastor hardly ever speaks on the merits of non-calvinism. he will occasionally disagree with the once save always saved position from the pulpit but that is about it. i just cant imagine having a guest speaker whose sermon would be "the 5 points of calvinism." if this happened, probably 80% of the attenders would likely have never even heard of "Tulip."

of course, that is one of the problems with the church i attend-- it's strong on bringing people in and not judging people, but rather weak in deeper teaching. some of us are trying to change this. and perhaps for this reason, many people wouldnt know contorversial doctrine if it was looking them in the face.

i heard steve mention today on his teaching about "how to study the scriptures" that a disappointingly large number of churchgoers really know quite little about the Bible. i know for a fact this is the case. i was involved with our youth group a couple of years ago and i devised what i thought was a rather basic "Bible Knowledge quiz" of about 50 multiple choice questions regarding basic OT and NT stories, basic doctrine, etc. the average score was about 30% right. not very impressive, because i honestly feel i could have probably scored at least a 90% when i was their age. something has happened in the church, but i am not entirely sure what. i am sure it has a great deal to do with the "seeker sensitive" movement, which creates churches, in most cases, a mile wide but about a foot deep.

TK

Hey TK,
Do you still have that quiz? I'd love to see it, and maybe take it. 8)

[Guest]

hi michelle-- yes i do have it somewhere-- but my computer crashed last year and it may not be saved. i think i may have it on a disk-- if so, i'll post it under the essay section.

TK

[Guest]

Thank you all for your well thought out responses.

Steve, I am so very sorry for you that you cannot be dogmatic on absolutely anything and can never seemingly come to any complete conclusion on what you believe. You seem to be a Christian that seems to have a dust and bones religion. You seem to me to think that a relationship with Christ is all about stuffing more information into your brain. You tend to judge the maturity of other Christians by what they do or do not know. I think that is an immature way to see it. The people of my Church are not immature for the most part. They are people that love the Lord with all their heart and you would cast judgement on them because they aren't as smart as you...well big deal!!! I'm not the least bit impressed by your intelligence. If intelligence leads to thinking more of one's self than they ought I want no part of it. I want to know the Word of God to do the Word of God. To be a hearer and not only a learner. A conduit and not just a reservoir.

You tell me I contradict myself and then go on to say that I don't believe in worship with other Christians. That is simply not what I have said. I believe that each denomination should continue in their beliefs and you can join yourself to that if you wish or not. I did not try to tell the cessationalist at the church I visited that they should seek the power of the Holy Ghost. They are living for the Lord and they are a group of good people but I would not dare go there and try to see if I could speak out my views that are contradictory to their own and cause nothing but trouble.

[_Allyn]

Aaron, why the hostility? If you think Steve is doing you wrong are you then repaying evil for evil? I believe you happen to be going overboard on this subject. It does seem to be hard for you to just dialog. I do agree with Steve and his pointing out how you waffled back and forth. First you stated your approval of Steves informed teachings and then after feeling like you hurt your pastor you then went back to your former self. This was just an observation by Steve but I can say I saw it also. I understand some people are affected by conversations differently then others so I find no fault in your reactions except to say as far as it depends on you, be at peace with your brother.

[Guest]

Yeah, Allyn, I waffled. I went back to the original way I believed not because I had hurt my pastor, but because I felt that I was headed in the wrong direction, I retreated. I prayed and studied up on a few things and decided to think differently. Steve himself said he also had trouble with going all the way over to his present beliefs.

Have you never started in a direction and turned the other way on a subject?

And also, I get all the heat for any hostility. I am not hostile at all. Just a little put off by the tone of some people when they address the subject of spiritual maturity, and call a group of people that love the Lord "arrogant Christian babes". The arrogance seems to be coming from the accuser to me. But that's just my opinion.

If spiritual Christian maturity is all about knowing the ins and outs of every doctrine and it's counterpart, then I know for sure there are a lot of immature Christians out there. But that's simply not a good indicator. Jesus said the Kingdom is made up of those that are like little children.

I know you would never address Steve's hostility toward me or any other. I once called him out for calling a poster on here "stupid" and you took up for him. Now I am a little frustrated and I am called "hostile". Doesn't really make sense to me.