Is anybody else a little weary of this...?

[Guest]

P.O.D. doesn't even claim to be a specifically Christian band.

"Movieline asks P.O.D. "are you a Christian band" – look at their confusing answer?

Q: Are you or are you not a Christian band?
A: We’re not, but we do believe in Jesus. (www.movieline.com, 11.00.1999)"

I strongely recommend these articles:

http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod.html

[Guest]

Hi TK,

I think you bring up some interesting points.

it seems that the church has lost confidence in the power of the gospel.

I wonder if the church (speaking in very general terms) has lost the meaning of the Gospel. In the past couple of centuries the Gospel was reduced to "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior". Evangelism, likewise, was reduced to getting people to "pray the sinner's prayer". It seems that this way of viewing the Gospel and evangelism has become spectacularly out of sync with our culture.

The Church has a Form and a Function. The Function of the Church never changes, but the Form needs to continuously change and adapt to the culture. I think that's what Paul was getting at with is "...all things to all men...".

What did the Gospel mean to Peter, Paul and the early Church? What did evangelism look like? How come there is no "sinner's prayer" recorded in scripture? I think I know one thing: The Gospel and evangelism seems to have been much more relational and much less transactional in the early days of Christianity (as well as in the current day in other parts of the world).

I highly recommend a book by N.T. Wright entitled "The Challenge of Jesus" which reexamines what "the Gospel" meant to Paul and the early Christians.

http://www.amazon.com/Challenge-Jesus-R ... F8&s=books

I can't speak much to the "seeker sensitive" movement as I haven't had that much direct contact with it. I do have a lot of respect for Rick Warren however. I've read "The Purpose Driven" church to understand his methodology and I visited Saddleback Church. It's impressive, although it's not the kind of church I would want to be part of due to personal tastes (I'm more house-church oriented). They are all about discipleship and have a well-oiled process of training new Christians to become functioning Christians. And they have had a considerable impact, both regionally and internationally.

Yeah Tozer and Ravenhill can be very convicting. I was really into Ravenhill at one time (during my "Keith Green" holiness phase) but nowadays I find him a bit lacking in the grace & mercy department.

does putting a christian twist on things that are generally considered sinful, with the purported goal of reaching the lost, thereby make them acceptable in the sight of God?

This statement/question is problematic to me. What, specifically are the things we're talking about that are "generally considered sinful"? Playing heavy metal music? "Considered sinful" by whom? Scripture? Or someone's opinion? Obviously, getting drunk for Jesus or making a "Christian" porno film would be "putting a christian twist on things that are generally considered sinful". These are things that scripture clearly calls sinful. So is crass consumerism, living in excess while others are in dire need, and usury (aka credit cards). Christians ought not to be promoting such things.

Without clear scriptural backing though, we need to be careful about proclaiming what is and isn't "acceptable in the sight of God", lest we inadvertently "call unclean what He has cleansed". If scripture is clear on the matter, that's one thing, but if we're talking about tastes and opinions, I think it's better to err on the side of grace and mercy.

[Guest]

thanks mort--

i seem to be coming across like a legalistic pharisee but i dont mean to. here's what i mean about putting a christian "twist" on things. i'll pick on heavy metal, but i could probably pick on any genre, it's just that heavy metal makes it easier. secular metal music has a certain connotation-- sex, questionably satanic imagery, violence, anarchy, etc etc. heavy metal stars (not all mind you) are known to be huge partiers, drug addicts, alcoholics, promiscuous etc. once again, this is not true for every musician in every metal band but you get the idea. in other words, metal music has a decidedly non-christian reputation.

is it "okay" for a bunch of christian musicians to copy the look, sound and styles of the heavy metal music, so much so that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference by looking at them or listening to them? (let's face it- lyrics are often indecipherable). rather than drawing borderline christian kids OUT of the metal scene, it would seem to keep them in.

now, you might respond that it would be better for them to listen to a christian metal band than a non-christian one, especially if they are going to listen to metal anyway. agreed. that is what makes this topic so difficult for me to get a handle on.

and i agree with you that the meaning of the gospel has been lost, and this only seems to be getting worse with time.

you mentioned about saddleback church:

They are all about discipleship and have a well-oiled process of training new Christians to become functioning Christians.

for some reason this statement makes me cringe.

TK

[Guest]

Brody,

Here's what POD says about this on their own FAQ:

What are P.O.D.'s spiritual beliefs?
P.O.D. is a band made up of Christians. Naturally, their beliefs spill into their music (it can't be contained!) as they express what is inside of them through the unique gifts God has blessed them with. This is plainly evidenced by reading the lyrics from their latest album - Satellite.

However, P.O.D. does not "label" themselves a Christian band. They don't want to be categorized. Their music and message is for all peoples, everywhere, regardless of beliefs.

Source: http://www.thesouthtown.com/faq/#6

I don't have a problem with that. Again, I'm curious about your opinion of U2, in which 3/4 of the members are Christian.

I strongely recommend these articles:

http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod.html

I visited that site. Are you sure you want to strongly recommend it? They also proclaim that God sent hurricane Katrina to judge America because of the Israeli pullout from Gaza. Here's a real eye-opener from the same site explaining how 9/11 was a sign of God "removing His protection" from America: http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/eleven.html
And, of course, we should all pay attention to the "666 Watch": http://www.av1611.org/666/index.html

Here are more pictures of Christians that don't look like you and I:

[Guest]

I strongely recommend these articles:

http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod.html

I visited that site. Are you sure you want to strongly recommend it? They also proclaim that God sent hurricane Katrina to judge America because of the Israeli pullout from Gaza. Here's a real eye-opener from the same site explaining how 9/11 was a sign of God "removing His protection" from America: http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/eleven.html
And, of course, we should all pay attention to the "666 Watch": http://www.av1611.org/666/index.html

I don't endorse some of the things on the av1611.org site. I just pointed to the P.O.D. articles, if I remember correctly.

Mort_Coyle: The question is not one of Christians who believe and/or look slightly different than us, we are discussing P.O.D.'s portrayal to our culture. We all agree that not all Christians have to look exactly the same. "Modesty" is one culture may be slightly different in another.

But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about our culture. 50 years ago, P.O.D. would be arrested simply for displaying themselves in public. P.O.D. doesn't just look different, they undermine the very essense of Christianity: Christ. They distrort and pervert our Lord and Saviour by promoting and praising anti-Christ, blasphemous and filthy rock performers, such as Marilyn Manson. Manson, an officially, ordained "reverend" in the Church of Satan, mutilates himself on stage, and I need not go any further for young children who may be browsing this forum.

That is much different than people who simply "look" different than we do. We are to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them, in Christian love. This is the way of the Cross.

[Guest]

I strongely recommend these articles:

http://www.av1611.org/crock/pod.html

I visited that site. Are you sure you want to strongly recommend it? They also proclaim that God sent hurricane Katrina to judge America because of the Israeli pullout from Gaza. Here's a real eye-opener from the same site explaining how 9/11 was a sign of God "removing His protection" from America: http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/eleven.html
And, of course, we should all pay attention to the "666 Watch": http://www.av1611.org/666/index.html

I don't endorse some of the things on the av1611.org site. I just pointed to the P.O.D. articles, if I remember correctly.

Mort_Coyle: The question is not one of Christians who believe and/or look slightly different than us, we are discussing P.O.D.'s portrayal to our culture. We all agree that not all Christians have to look exactly the same. "Modesty" is one culture may be slightly different in another.

But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about our culture. 50 years ago, P.O.D. would be arrested simply for displaying themselves in public. P.O.D. doesn't just look different, they undermine the very essense of Christianity: Christ. They distrort and pervert our Lord and Saviour by promoting and praising anti-Christ, blasphemous and filthy rock performers, such as Marilyn Manson. Manson, an officially, ordained "reverend" in the Church of Satan, mutilates himself on stage, and I need not go any further for young children who may be browsing this forum.

That is much different than people who simply "look" different than we do. We are to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them, in Christian love. This is the way of the Cross.

[Guest]

50 years ago, P.O.D. would be arrested simply for displaying themselves in public. P.O.D. doesn't just look different, they undermine the very essense of Christianity: Christ. They distrort and pervert our Lord and Saviour by promoting and praising anti-Christ, blasphemous and filthy rock performers, such as Marilyn Manson. Manson, an officially, ordained "reverend" in the Church of Satan, mutilates himself on stage, and I need not go any further for young children who may be browsing this forum.

If Mort can't appeal to other cultures, then neither can you appeal to 50 years ago, and use it to support your views. God's all for universal when it comes to indivuality. The tattoo issue is debatable. Jesus has written on His thigh, "King of King, and Lord of Lords, if I am not mistaken. More could be said on tattoos being permissible. I personally do not support it, nor will I get one, however this to some isn't very clear.

[Guest]

If Mort can't appeal to other cultures, then neither can you appeal to 50 years ago, and use it to support your views. God's all for universal when it comes to indivuality. The tattoo issue is debatable. Jesus has written on His thigh, "King of King, and Lord of Lords, if I am not mistaken. More could be said on tattoos being permissible. I personally do not support it, nor will I get one, however this to some isn't very clear.

I don't believe I was appealing to the 1950s and 60s; I was just making a thought provoking statement.

Concerning tatoos, Jesus would be sinning if He had one; while living as a Jewish man that is.

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." - Lev. 19:27

Further your reference to Rev. 19:16, "written" is a far cry from a tatoo. Now, we aren't under Levitical law, but I was just making another point. Perhaps the principle still applies.

[Guest]

Hi TK,

Don't worry, you're not coming across as a legalistic pharisee, but as a thoughtful person.

is it "okay" for a bunch of christian musicians to copy the look, sound and styles of the heavy metal music, so much so that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference by looking at them or listening to them? (let's face it- lyrics are often indecipherable). rather than drawing borderline christian kids OUT of the metal scene, it would seem to keep them in.

I have to take exception to the apparent presupposition here, which is that members of a Christian heavy metal band intentionally "copy the look, sound and styles". That makes them sound disingenuous. What if they really are heavy metal musicians and the heavy metal culture (for example) really is their culture? What if they are being authentic to who they are and are called to stand as Christians in that culture?

And I'm not sure I understand what this "metal scene" is that you speak of. I know many teens who enjoy metal music, or rap music, or country music or even classical music but are not part of any "metal scene" or "rap scene" or "country scene" or (God forbid!) "classical scene".

As far as not being able to tell the difference or understand the lyrics, trust me, the kids understand the lyrics and understand what the bands they listen to stand for. Unfortunately, so many bands stand for nihilism.
I think this makes bands that put forth a Christian worldview stand out that much more.

you mentioned about saddleback church:

Quote:
They are all about discipleship and have a well-oiled process of training new Christians to become functioning Christians.


for some reason this statement makes me cringe.

That statement was intended to make you cringe. The "well-oiled-ness" of Saddleback is one of the reasons why I have trouble personally connecting with it. I like my church a bit (a lot!) messier and less predictable. But that's just me. I do believe that Rick Warren is incredibly gifted in administration, to the point that he's probably an organizational genius. I can appreciate what God has done through Saddleback, even though it's not my cup of tea.

[Guest]

mort wrote:

What if they really are heavy metal musicians and the heavy metal culture (for example) really is their culture?

the burning question i am trying to answer is SHOULD it be??

but when i ask questions like that, i fear it makes me sound like an old fogey who is out of touch with reality.

can a disciple of christ be into heavy metal culture? or murderous video game culture? or hip hop culture?

TK