Alternative Views of Hell

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:55 pm

And where is that verse that the GATES of hell will not prevail against the kingdom of God or "my church" Matt 16. Sounds like the kingdom of God is pushing in the gates of hell and the gates will collapse
Maybe that's not such a good example, Steve. The word translated as "hell" in that verse is not "Gehenna" but "Hades".

"Hades" often means simply "death" or "the grave". Even in earlier English, "hell" was "a hidden place". Today we might say a "hide-out"
I think Jesus is saying that death will not prevail against His church. Right now, disciples die like everyone else. But death is going to be eliminated. In the resurrection, "This mortal must put on immortality."
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Paidion
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:19 pm

Paidion wrote:....But death is going to be eliminated. In the resurrection, "This mortal must put on immortality."
Yes, and if it is to be eliminated then that would also include the second death; otherwise, death would still be the victor.

Todd
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:10 pm

Hi Steve,
Second, Thomas Thayer (the respected lexicographer)...
I know that his has nothing to do with the topic, but Isn't it Joseph Thayer that is the lexicographer?
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_Steve
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Post by _Steve » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:25 am

Yes, you are correct. Thanks for pointing that out. I made that mistake in my third post on page one of this thread. I have gone back and corrected it.
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_AARONDISNEY
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:14 pm

While I don't always agree with Steve Gregg's conclusions. I came across this in the early posts of this thread. This is a pretty amazing assessment of living and learning....
1. There are some things that would not be so confusing if I had not learned them wrongly in the first place. Human traditions have been with us for thousands of years, and we learned them from those wholearned them from a previous generation. Even if we had not prior prejudices, it would take a very long time of study to master the contents of the Bible, but it is definitely made more difficult by the added task of seeing our way clear of embedded orthodoxies that have put our studies off on a false scent in some areas. Unlearning is perhaps more difficult than is learning;

2. There is no hurry to reach total understanding. The Spirit of God has our whole lifetime to school us, if we do not lose patience. It can be frustrating to think that we have to go back to square-one and rethink subjects that we thought we had previously mastered...but it is made more frustrating if we feel that we have to be in a hurry to "get through" this learning stage (like getting through college) so that we can get on with the business of fully knowing. MY perspective is that all of my life is for learning; heaven is for knowing fully (1 Cor.13:12). Besides, I think life would not be half so exciting if I now knew everything and had no more thrills of discovery to look forward to.

3. Some things simply aren't as important for us to know as we think they are. God is more interested in discussing and revealing the things that He believes to be essential than satisfying our curiosity about things that we think we want to know (like, "Is there life on other planets?"). Part of maturing, I believe, is becoming content to know what God wants me to know and to let Him know the "secret things" that "belong to the Lord" (Deut.29:29).
I want to know the truths of God's word. It is very important to me. I don't want to believe something simply for the fact that it's popular. But God said He wants us to worship him in Spirit and in truth.

Sometimes I have the greatest difficulty mixing the two. It may just be a problem I have. When I am in deep search of truth, I find a weakness in me to become combative. To think down on people that believe what I consider may be false assumptions (though not necessarily to their detriment every time) and I just want to be argumentative, and I exclude the duty and privilege I have of worshipping God for the sake of investigating God, but when I try to block all that out of my mind and allow fellowship without concerning myself with all the doctrinal differences I find a peace with my brothers and sisters in the Lord, but my natural desire to seek God is impeded and I have to get back to it.

Now - truthfully - I don't have so many contradicting conclusions to the popular opinion as most of you do. There are a lot of things that I feel fine with accepting (so far) along with most traditional beliefs...such as the one that is discussed in this thread. Of course I've not looked so deeply into it as most of you have. But (and my apologies for getting this train off the rails) how do you all have such contradictory opinions and still feel the closeness and bond that you should feel with other brothers and sisters in Christ? Or DO some of you have difficulties with folks that believe something without investigation WHY they believe it, such as I sometimes do?
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Post by _Steve » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:25 pm

I guess I consider that the other guy has as much right to think for himself as I have. No one was ever commanded by God to agree with me, so I can hardly hold it against someone if they choose not to do so. Nothing but ego could make this a matter of division between me and that person, and it would seem unreasonable for me to allow something as contrary to my Chritisan convictions as my ego to determine whom I will love as a brother. I am commanded to love, but I am not commanded to defend my ego. It seems a pretty simple matter, really.

On the other hand, for those who find it more difficult, I don't mean to sound superior (I have my own sins and challenges). I am only unable to understand why anyone who love the Lord would not wish to love everyone that He loves. It is so much more enjoyable to be accepting than to maintain walls.
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_AARONDISNEY
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:47 pm

Thanks Steve,
Nah, it's not a question of loving the other person. I have no problem with loving them. It's respecting them for their beliefs when they can't explain WHY they believe them. It's a weakness in me that causes me to have difficulties with them (not hardly ever outwardly but in my mind)because I feel it so important that we "get it right", when truly it's sometimes hard to get it all right for sure. That's why I appreciated your assessment of living and learning, that's all. It's just a weakness that I have to deal with. Others don't so much I suppose. Thanks for the reply.
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_schoel
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Post by _schoel » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:45 am

Steve wrote:I guess I consider that the other guy has as much right to think for himself as I have. No one was ever commanded by God to agree with me, so I can hardly hold it against someone if they choose not to do so. Nothing but ego could make this a matter of division between me and that person, and it would seem unreasonable for me to allow something as contrary to my Chritisan convictions as my ego to determine whom I will love as a brother. I am commanded to love, but I am not commanded to defend my ego. It seems a pretty simple matter, really.

On the other hand, for those who find it more difficult, I don't mean to sound superior (I have my own sins and challenges). I am only unable to understand why anyone who love the Lord would not wish to love everyone that He loves. It is so much more enjoyable to be accepting than to maintain walls.
It seems to me that this also applies to those who aren't a part of the Church as well. That matches the attitude of Jesus toward the "pagans" and "gentiles" of his time.
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Post by _AARONDISNEY » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:35 pm

This may be a point that's been brought up - I don't know - I've not read through the whole thread and don't really intend to.

But I often hear of those that don't believe in eternal punishment, that we couldn't possibly enjoy heaven knowing that people we love are burning eternally.

Well, I've believed the doctrine of eternal punishment for as long as I can remember hearing of hell, and I've known people that have died without the Lord. Some that were close to me. And though it pains me to think of it, I don't go around agonizing over it day after day.

So I seriously doubt that if I can handle believing that of people I've known that have gone there here on earth, that I would be miserable in the glory of heaven knowing the same thing.

Hope that made sense.....and I hope I'm not repeating a comment already made earlier in the thread.
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_roblaine
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Post by _roblaine » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:06 pm

Hi Aarondisney,
Well, I've believed the doctrine of eternal punishment for as long as I can remember hearing of hell, and I've known people that have died without the Lord. Some that were close to me. And though it pains me to think of it, I don't go around agonizing over it day after day.

So I seriously doubt that if I can handle believing that of people I've known that have gone there here on earth, that I would be miserable in the glory of heaven knowing the same thing.
I can't relate with this comment. I have two children, and from time to time, one of them gets into and accident, and as all parents know, when a child is truly hurt and screams in pain, it scares you immensely, and I would do anything I could to relieve the pain. I can't imagine that I would feel any different if either of my children were suffering in hell for eternity, as a matter fact just the thought of it is haunting. I personally believe that God loves my children much more than, I and will do all he can to save them out of such horror. Even if it meant annihilating them.

Thank you,
Robin
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