How many Calvinists/Arminians do we have?

[Guest]

---------first off, i must say, that i have a deep love for the great
---------commission school, and steve gregg's teachings, i almost ditched
---------the entire new testament while struggling with the doctrine of the
---------trinity, and God (sovereignly) used steve's teachings to straighten
---------out my theological disasters

---------so my responses here on the site will not echo any condemnation,
---------(well maybe if someone here is an open theist... i have a lot of
---------beef with open theism), but most of all, i dont wish to insult
---------anyone, but discuss this matter in the most loving, Christ-like way
---------possible

---------lastly, I dont care for the term "calvinism", just like most of yall
---------probably dont like the term "non-calvinist", same goes for terms
---------like "baptist" "methodist" ist ist ist.............. and i cant debate this
---------at the level that steve (and many of you) can debate this, so i will
---------respond the best that i can, considering the points yall make

---------and..... i have a really busy schedule, so i'm sorry if i'm not quick
---------to respond

If you are a Calvinist, let me ask you a question: <b>If you somehow found out that you weren’t one of the elect, would you still be a Calvinist?</b>

-------key word: "somehow", that isnt a reasonanble hypothetical

If you are unable to have the “final say” about our eternal destiny, don’t you think that that is limiting God? If Calvinism is correct, then God “chooses” us to sin and to go to hell. Am I right? And if he does, then that god is the worst demon I could ever imagine.

-------so... do you believe that God knew that mankind would fall, and be
-------sinful? it is crucial for me to know your answer to that before i can
-------really respond, if you are an open theist, then i will have to talk to
-------ya in another manner, if you are a "sound" arminian (believing in
-------God's omniscience) then we can reason differently

And if we are not “able” to “respond” to God’s call, then we are not “response-able”, for our actions. Am I right? And if we are “responsible” for our actions, then how in the world is God glorified by sin, which he “chooses” to have us commit?

--------wayne grudem's systematic theology goes into that question quite
--------deeply, much deeper than i can go, the most i could give to that
--------question is that the cross was prophecied about so much
--------throughout the O.T, but God isn't to blame for Christ's death is He?

You know, there is not a <i><b>single</b></i> verse in the entire Bible that says God has the “final say” about our eternal destiny. Not one. God <i><b>never</b></i> says that he has predestined us to heaven or to hell. Never.

--------so... whats that whole judge thing about? is God not the judge of
--------who goes where? and if you believe that God is all-knowing, did he
--------know before we were born if we would follow Him or not?

If I remember correctly, “ … he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Rom. 8:29, KJV).

--------I agree, but lets not forget verse 28 (who love God, to those who
--------are called according to His purpose.)

So from that verse God is simply saying that he wishes for every soul to be “conformed to the image of His Son.” But observably not everyone does. God does not wish for one soul to go to hell and another to heaven. But when you are “conformed to the image of His Son,” heaven is a mere “side-benefit”—not the main focus.

--------i dont read that verse in the same way that you do, but i will make
--------it a point for me in the next few days to study that chapter to see
--------how you came to your understanding of it

--------i'm not going to talk about the john calvin info, from the
--------biographies my friends and i have become acquainted with, the
--------whole servetus thing wasn't blood on john calvin's hands, but
--------besides that, i dont give a hoot about what calvin said, i'd rather
--------consult the Word of God

“[God] … with whom is no variableness” (James 1:17)
“For there is no respect of persons with God.” (Rom. 2:11)

--------I agree with these verses. and I am a calvinist.

So, dear Calvinist friends, I as another question: <b>How do you know that you are one of the elect?</b> And not only <b>how</b> do you know, but <b>why</b> would God choose you out of billions?

--------I know because I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, and He
--------has changed my life in radical ways
--------and for the second question there, i will paraphrase something that
--------billy graham said in an interview when he was first told that he isnt
--------the best preacher in the world, then asked why God chose him to
--------preach to the masses, and lead many to Christ, and his response
--------to this, is the same response i have to your question

--------"that will be the first question I ask when I get to Heaven"

in King Jesus,
Devin T. Murphy

[Guest]

Hi AARONDISNEY. Welcome to the forum. This forum is really good because the "back-biting" is not so prevalent. We discuss issues as brothers in Christ and we don't beat each other over the head with the Bible.

And about the Calvinists, I agree. I believe they are sincere, but simply don't know any other way. They have been taught from small up that Calvinism is correct, and it's so ingrained in them. They can't be blamed for that.

And the Calvinists think that the ability to choose is not glorifying God and making God weak. But let me tell you, if God chooses everything that will happen, everyone who will go to heaven and hell; then that seems to be an even weaker god. But when that supreme God, imparts a characteristic of Himself to His creatures; that God is more powerful than I can fathom.

loaves

i had non-calvinism ingrained in me (with steve's teachings)

and i'm a "calvinist" now, so that isnt neccisarily true, tho in many cases, it is

[Guest]

Devin wrote:

throughout the O.T, but God isn't to blame for Christ's death is He?

Tough question for me to answer. But I'm sure that there are many who can answer this but I will try.

The death and ressurection of Jesus Christ has been planned by God for through his death and resurrection he served as a ransome for all of us.

It is written in Matthew 26:54 "But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

It is very clear that God is responsible for the death and ressurection of
Christ.

But God is not responsible for everything such as the death of Judas. God did not make Judas to commit suicide but rather Judas felt too much guilt for what he had done and he could not bear it any longer therefore he decided to kill himself. There are events where God is responsible and there are events in which "we" are responsible.

Please visit your brothers and sisters at http://www.livebytruth.com

[Guest]

Devin wrote:

throughout the O.T, but God isn't to blame for Christ's death is He?

Tough question for me to answer. But I'm sure that there are many who can answer this but I will try.

The death and ressurection of Jesus Christ has been planned by God for through his death and resurrection he served as a ransome for all of us.

It is written in Matthew 26:54 "But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

It is very clear that God is responsible for the death and ressurection of
Christ.

But God is not responsible for everything such as the death of Judas. God did not make Judas to commit suicide but rather Judas felt too much guilt for what he had done and he could not bear it any longer therefore he decided to kill himself. There are events where God is responsible and there are events in which "we" are responsible.

Please visit your brothers and sisters at http://www.livebytruth.com

hey brother, thanks for the response

God predetermined Christ's death on the Cross

but the blood of Christ is on the hands of those who crucified Him

God predetermined that Christ would be crucified, but He was crucified by lawless men (Acts 2:23)

also in Acts 1:16, it shows that Judas's work was prophecied to happen

since God predetermined Christ's death (1st Peter 1:17-21) I'm sure that He predetermined who would kill Christ 1st Corinthians 2:7,8

again, wayne grudem's systematic theology goes into all of this stuff very extensively, giving many examples of events that God initially caused, but is not responsible for.

in King Jesus,
Devin

[Guest]

I am more reformed in my theology than not, I think that calvinism gets a bad rap from either aragant "truly reformed" , theologyology people - the study of the study of God, or from reactionary arminianist to either true or false representations of calvism that either way tend to push some emotional buttons. My allegence is to the living Christ and His living word, not to John Calvin, Luther, Piper, Sproul, Edwards, or Owen. These men as well as all who are under grace are my brothers, no one man is always right and we allways have much to learn.

Steve Gregg and John Owen are my brothers, Jesus Christ is my Lord.

[Guest]

Hello Devin,
Since you've listened to Steve's series on Calvinism, instead of going back and forth, what is it that you see lacking from Steve's presentation? Or to put it another way, what is wrong with/what do you disagree with Steve about?

You've mentioned a few times that God knew what would happen and I agree that He does, but how exactly does that effect the non-Calvinist viewpoint. Is it not possible that God know what the results of our thoughts and actions will be? In other words, knowing the future is not the same as causing it.

[Guest]

In other words, knowing the future is not the same as causing it.

Knowing what free-will agents will choose would result in causing those "free choices", and this is a contradiction, and therefore impossible.

Let me explain. If someone knows that I raise my hand at time T, this implies that raising my hand at time T is now true.

If it is now true that I raise my hand at time T, then it is going to happen. There is no way that I can refrain from raising my hand at time T.

By the same reasoning, if it is now false that I raise my hand at time T, then then I cannot raise my hand at time T.

Thus, whether or not the statement "I raise my hand at time T" (where T is some time in the future) is now true or now false, I do not have free will. For, either I cannot raise my hand at time T, or I cannot refrain from raising my hand at time T.

But I do have free will, that is, the power to choose whether or not I raise my hand at time T.

Therefore the statement "I raise my hand at time T" must be neither true nor false now.

Only statements that are either true or false can be known. If a statement is neither true nor false, there is nothing to know.

The statement "I raise my hand at time T" is neither true nor false now. That statement will become true or false at time T, when I make my decision.

Since, for the reasons I gave, the statement "I raise my hand at time T" cannot be known, then God doesn't know it either.

Yet God knows all things. He is omnicient. But knowing what cannot be known, is not an object of knowledge.

[Guest]

i'm working at the moment, i'll try to respond tonight or tommorow

in King Jesus,
Devin

[Guest]

Hello Devin,
Since you've listened to Steve's series on Calvinism, instead of going back and forth, what is it that you see lacking from Steve's presentation? Or to put it another way, what is wrong with/what do you disagree with Steve about?

hey sean,

the reason i'm "going back and forth" is because i am responding to the challenge that was put out by loaves, his presentation is the one i am discussing, not steve's, i just wanted to preface my response to show that i'm not blind concerning the non-calvinist viewpoint, and that i love steve as a brother in Christ,

and to go into where i differ with steve's presentation would be for me to not go off-topic altogether, but i feel that it could get us into some confusion on down the road of the conversation because i was responding to loaves, and then i would be responding to steve, and that could get mixed up because i'm not associating steve's arguments with loaves arguments, ya know what i mean?

and to really get into all of the disagreements that i have with steve's arguments for his position could take decades because there is so much material on both sides, this is why i would like to deal with what is brought up in the forum, and have a discussion on the particular points that have been made

You've mentioned a few times that God knew what would happen and I agree that He does, but how exactly does that effect the non-Calvinist viewpoint. Is it not possible that God know what the results of our thoughts and actions will be? In other words, knowing the future is not the same as causing it.

i feel that the non-calvinist position is inconsistent if the non-calvinist also believes that God is omniscient, that is what made me re-think the whole arminian viewpoint in the first place, and i have only believed some of the principles in calvinism for probably about 6 months now, so i could be drastically wrong, but at this moment in time i am at peace with my position on the matter

to say that God knows the future, but did not plan the future is like saying that God read the story and knows it, but didn't write the story

[Guest]

to say that God knows the future, but did not plan the future is like saying that God read the story and knows it, but didn't write the story

Hey brother,

Yes, it is like this. But where is the fallacy in your example here?

God bless,