yes, paidion, that is a rather radical suggestion. but i like it!
you seem to be implying, then, that when the israelites killed men, women children and animals, they perhaps werent doing the actual will of God, but rather what they PERCEIVED the will of God to be.
It is a possible explanation, but it may go a tad too far; in other words, anything that offends our sensibilities in the Bible could be explained away by saying that God was misunderstood by his prophets, etc, when in actuality they may have been doing EXACTLY what God told them to do, for reasons not quite clear to us. He is God, after all. further, if the Bible documents a whole bunch of things that were purportedly commanded by God, but in fact weren't, then we have a major problem with the reliability of what the scriptures tell us about God, etc.
how would you respond to this?
TK
Reconciling the "God of the OT" with Jesus.
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_STEVE7150
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I have to confess that I don't believe Yahweh ever said these words to Moses or instituted this "test" of a suspected wife. I think these were entirely Moses' thoughts, and He ascribed them to "the LORD". It reminds me of a lot of people running around today, declaring that "The LORD told me this" or "The Lord told me that."
Jesus never hinted that we should qualify anything that Moses wrote in fact He referred to it as the Word of God quite authoratatively.
Jesus never hinted that we should qualify anything that Moses wrote in fact He referred to it as the Word of God quite authoratatively.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_anothersteve
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Derek wrote
1.God waited over 400 years to destroy the Canaanites.
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."
If there were a number of righteous Canaanites remaining, I think, based on this scripture, that God would have waited longer.
2. There was, at least, one Canaanite family who turned toward God in faith and they were spared (Rahab’s family). Keep in mind that all she did was acknowledge God’s greatness and as a result put her faith in him. She didn’t jump through hoops or anything. Everyone else in Jericho was afraid but refused to submit to God…God knows the heart.
Also, possibly consider the Gibeonites.
3. The Canaanites were doing some pretty evil stuff, like child sacrifice. I’ve heard more than one sermon about Rahab being an example of an “outcast” in society…or “Why would the spies stay in a prostitutes house?”….. When in reality Rahab would have likely fit right in with her society. Who knows, maybe the spies picked the one of the most righteous homes (relatively speaking) to hide in….instead of, you know, the child sacrificer’s home.
4. One of the reasons God told the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites was so they wouldn’t learn their evil ways. Perhaps leaving the children would be considered a future temptation for the Israelites….ie..many children would likely have wanted to honor their parents tradition by returning to the “good old Canaanite days”.
5. Destroying all the animals in Jericho could have been to prove/purify one’s motivation for destroying it. If God allowed them to keep some animals or gold then some people would likely be motivated by the booty. If all is consecrated to God then the motivation is for God’s glory alone with no ulterior motive.
This would also apply in the example of Achan. All his goods were destroyed as well. This would help prevent ulterior motives for killing him as well. No room for greed, just unadulterated justice.
Killing/consecrating all the animals in the first town, Jericho, was also a way to show honor to God with the first fruits (an act of faith)….I mean, who would want to give up a whole bunch of riches when they are right in your hands...that's faith!! They were allowed to keep much of the spoils after that.
Steve
I don’t have all the answers but here are a few things that I’ve taken into consideration.How does this square with the wiping out of nations? (Especially children,
1.God waited over 400 years to destroy the Canaanites.
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."
If there were a number of righteous Canaanites remaining, I think, based on this scripture, that God would have waited longer.
2. There was, at least, one Canaanite family who turned toward God in faith and they were spared (Rahab’s family). Keep in mind that all she did was acknowledge God’s greatness and as a result put her faith in him. She didn’t jump through hoops or anything. Everyone else in Jericho was afraid but refused to submit to God…God knows the heart.
Also, possibly consider the Gibeonites.
3. The Canaanites were doing some pretty evil stuff, like child sacrifice. I’ve heard more than one sermon about Rahab being an example of an “outcast” in society…or “Why would the spies stay in a prostitutes house?”….. When in reality Rahab would have likely fit right in with her society. Who knows, maybe the spies picked the one of the most righteous homes (relatively speaking) to hide in….instead of, you know, the child sacrificer’s home.
4. One of the reasons God told the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites was so they wouldn’t learn their evil ways. Perhaps leaving the children would be considered a future temptation for the Israelites….ie..many children would likely have wanted to honor their parents tradition by returning to the “good old Canaanite days”.
5. Destroying all the animals in Jericho could have been to prove/purify one’s motivation for destroying it. If God allowed them to keep some animals or gold then some people would likely be motivated by the booty. If all is consecrated to God then the motivation is for God’s glory alone with no ulterior motive.
This would also apply in the example of Achan. All his goods were destroyed as well. This would help prevent ulterior motives for killing him as well. No room for greed, just unadulterated justice.
Killing/consecrating all the animals in the first town, Jericho, was also a way to show honor to God with the first fruits (an act of faith)….I mean, who would want to give up a whole bunch of riches when they are right in your hands...that's faith!! They were allowed to keep much of the spoils after that.
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
So we can not believe God, through people, destroyed nations in the Old Testament? We are informed in the Old Testament that God took credit for it! He not only used another nation to punish Israel, but then punished the nation that did it.
Has God repented and become a Christian? Seems to me this same God (Jesus) visited Jerusalem in AD 70 and the result was not unlike those cases we read of in the OT. Interestingly, Abraham Lincoln stated that the Civil War was God's punishment for our sins as a people, and that the war would not end until until our punishment was completed.
Jeremiah 18:7-8;
"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck it up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it."
Are we to believe Jeremiah also had a problem understanding God? Perhaps if Moses and Jeremiah were here today they would be "big hair" TV preachers and give Benny Hinn a run for the money.
Seriously, we can run far off the track when we try to interpret scripture so as to make God into what our fallible minds think He ought to be.
Has God repented and become a Christian? Seems to me this same God (Jesus) visited Jerusalem in AD 70 and the result was not unlike those cases we read of in the OT. Interestingly, Abraham Lincoln stated that the Civil War was God's punishment for our sins as a people, and that the war would not end until until our punishment was completed.
Jeremiah 18:7-8;
"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck it up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it."
Are we to believe Jeremiah also had a problem understanding God? Perhaps if Moses and Jeremiah were here today they would be "big hair" TV preachers and give Benny Hinn a run for the money.
Seriously, we can run far off the track when we try to interpret scripture so as to make God into what our fallible minds think He ought to be.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
A Berean
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_anothersteve
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Homer wrote
Steve
True, in fact sometimes he had them (the Israelites) confront the nations without any weapons or reduced numbers for the express purpose of showing the Israelites and surrounding nations that HE was fighting the battle. This unconventional way of "fighting" is not like the "Jihads" or "Holy Wars"(Crusades) of more recent times. Using some of the methods that God had the Israelites use clearly showed that this was God's doing.So we can not believe God, through people, destroyed nations in the Old Testament? We are informed in the Old Testament that God took credit for it!
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_anothersteve
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Paidion wrote
Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9
Surely He meant that He was Another exactly like the Father.
Jesus was filled with love and compassion toward people while He was here on earth. The Father also, is filled with love and compassion toward people. Any characteristic of Jesus you can find, the same may be truly said of the Father.
This is absolutely true. I also see the Father spoken of in Psalm 23 and many other OT passages as a loving Shepherd. I also see Jesus as the ultimate expression of the following passage:
Jer 3:15 "'And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
One thing I’ve also considered is that we are living in a time/season of grace…just like they had opportunities for mercy in the OT. Remember, the Israelites were thumbing their nose at a God who loved them and cared for them (and God was longsuffering with them).
Jesus made a similar comment in John 12 as the one he made in John 14:9:
John 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment--what to say and what to speak.
And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."
Notice, in the passage, Jesus said he didn’t come to judge but that if they didn’t receive his word then they would be judged in the end. This is where I see a season of grace/opportunity to repent.
Yes, God is loving and caring, beyond our imagination…yet after longsuffering is just. The rejection of God's ultimate expression of a loving Shepherd will meet the ultimate punishment.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Paidion wrote
So if the Father, in the OT, appears to be a killer of people for virtually no reason (e.g. killing the fellow who attempted to steady the ark)
I don’t think it was for no reason. If you look back to Leviticus 10 we see the first occurrence of the Levites not following God’s instruction in the tabernacle. Nadab and Abihu were killed by fire thus setting a precedent of respect with God’s Holy tabernacle.
Lev 10:3 Then Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD has said, 'Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.'" And Aaron held his peace.
In the case of the cart…the Ark was not to be touched and should never have been carried by oxen the first place. It was to be carried on the shoulders of the Levites.
Num 4:15 And when Aaron and his sons have finished covering the sanctuary and all the furnishings of the sanctuary, as the camp sets out, after that the sons of Kohath shall come to carry these, but they must not touch the holy things, lest they die. These are the things of the tent of meeting that the sons of Kohath are to carry.
Num 7:9 But to the sons of Kohath he gave none, because they were charged with the service of the holy things that had to be carried on the shoulder.
Steve
Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9
Surely He meant that He was Another exactly like the Father.
Jesus was filled with love and compassion toward people while He was here on earth. The Father also, is filled with love and compassion toward people. Any characteristic of Jesus you can find, the same may be truly said of the Father.
This is absolutely true. I also see the Father spoken of in Psalm 23 and many other OT passages as a loving Shepherd. I also see Jesus as the ultimate expression of the following passage:
Jer 3:15 "'And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
One thing I’ve also considered is that we are living in a time/season of grace…just like they had opportunities for mercy in the OT. Remember, the Israelites were thumbing their nose at a God who loved them and cared for them (and God was longsuffering with them).
Jesus made a similar comment in John 12 as the one he made in John 14:9:
John 12:45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.
I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment--what to say and what to speak.
And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."
Notice, in the passage, Jesus said he didn’t come to judge but that if they didn’t receive his word then they would be judged in the end. This is where I see a season of grace/opportunity to repent.
Yes, God is loving and caring, beyond our imagination…yet after longsuffering is just. The rejection of God's ultimate expression of a loving Shepherd will meet the ultimate punishment.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Paidion wrote
So if the Father, in the OT, appears to be a killer of people for virtually no reason (e.g. killing the fellow who attempted to steady the ark)
I don’t think it was for no reason. If you look back to Leviticus 10 we see the first occurrence of the Levites not following God’s instruction in the tabernacle. Nadab and Abihu were killed by fire thus setting a precedent of respect with God’s Holy tabernacle.
Lev 10:3 Then Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD has said, 'Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.'" And Aaron held his peace.
In the case of the cart…the Ark was not to be touched and should never have been carried by oxen the first place. It was to be carried on the shoulders of the Levites.
Num 4:15 And when Aaron and his sons have finished covering the sanctuary and all the furnishings of the sanctuary, as the camp sets out, after that the sons of Kohath shall come to carry these, but they must not touch the holy things, lest they die. These are the things of the tent of meeting that the sons of Kohath are to carry.
Num 7:9 But to the sons of Kohath he gave none, because they were charged with the service of the holy things that had to be carried on the shoulder.
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Derek wrote,
Recently I have been reading a book on the early Christian fathers. Both Tertullian, and Polycarp dealt with a group of heretics called the Marcionists. They believed that the OT, and NT Deity were not compatible. So the created two Gods, the God of the OT (Demiurge) was a God of Justice and inferior to the God of the NT (Jesus), the God of love. They believe that Jesus came to destroy the work of Demiurge. Tertullian devoted five books to refute this group and challenge their beliefs. I linked the five books below.
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/T ... arcion.pdf
I have not read all the books yet, but I hope to do so soon.
Robin
Hi Derek,I have a friend who just can't seem to get over the idea that the OT and NT present two different, and contradictory views of God.
Recently I have been reading a book on the early Christian fathers. Both Tertullian, and Polycarp dealt with a group of heretics called the Marcionists. They believed that the OT, and NT Deity were not compatible. So the created two Gods, the God of the OT (Demiurge) was a God of Justice and inferior to the God of the NT (Jesus), the God of love. They believe that Jesus came to destroy the work of Demiurge. Tertullian devoted five books to refute this group and challenge their beliefs. I linked the five books below.
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/T ... arcion.pdf
I have not read all the books yet, but I hope to do so soon.
Robin
Last edited by _borodpakt on Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Reason:
God Bless
It's not what our "fallible minds think He ought to be." It's what Jesus, the exact image of His essence, the Chief Revelation of God to man, is known to be.Seriously, we can run far off the track when we try to interpret scripture so as to make God into what our fallible minds think He ought to be.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
paidion--
isnt it possible that jesus didn't reveal everything about himself during his earthly ministry?
TK
isnt it possible that jesus didn't reveal everything about himself during his earthly ministry?
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
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_PAULESPINO
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A co-worker of mine is also having a difficulty in the idea that God would allow innocent men, women and babies to be killed in the Old Testament.
I told him that even if God had allowed them to die they are in a much better place than we are now and that is in "Heaven" where there are no pain, sufferings, sickness, evil, and everything negative you can imagine.
I made this assumption that they are in heaven base on the loving attribute of God.
He was satisfied with this type of reasoning.
I told him that even if God had allowed them to die they are in a much better place than we are now and that is in "Heaven" where there are no pain, sufferings, sickness, evil, and everything negative you can imagine.
I made this assumption that they are in heaven base on the loving attribute of God.
He was satisfied with this type of reasoning.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason: