Baptism of Repentance for the Remission of sin

Post by **_Swiftelk** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:58 am

Repentance means = "to perceive afterwards" Vines implying Change

Remission means = "a dismissal or release" used of the forgiveness of sins vines

Mark chapter 1 verse 4 "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission fo sins"

Q1 Does this mean that you have to be baptized (with repentance) in order to be forgiven of sins?

Q2 Those that were baptized by John were not yet saved (right?). So where does that put the baptism of repentance after Christ died?

Thank you

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:50 pm

When you read the account of John the Baptizer's ministry, you will see that he didn't say a word about forgiveness of sin.

The primary meaning of the Greek word is not "forgiveness" but "leaving" or "forsaking". John preached a baptism of repentance (having a change of mind) for the forsaking of sins. And he gave pointed practical advice as how to forsake sins. He told the soldiers not to rob people and to be content with their wages. He told the tax collectors not to take more than was owed.

In answer to your first question, regeneration takes place at baptism, the "washing of regeneration." I believe that a person who deliberately refuses baptism will not be regenerated.

I don't understand your second question. What do you mean when you say that those who were baptized by John were not yet "saved"? None of us are yet saved. Salvation from sin is a life-long process which culminates at the coming of Christ when He puts the finishing touches on the process.

Or maybe by "not yet saved" you mean that they were not saved from Hell. Do you think that those baptized by John went to Hell, or will go to Hell?

The difference in baptism before the death of Christ from baptism after the death of Christ, does not lie the matter of salvation, but in the matter of receiving the Holy Spirit. It was after the resurrection of Christ, that the Holy Spirit was sent, and came upon the disciples with power.

When those who had put to death Christ were listening to Peter and were "cut to the heart", and asked, "Men and Brethren, what shall we do?", Peter didn't give them the four spiritual laws or tell them that if they accepted Christ into their hearts they would go to Heaven. Rather, he told them, "Repent and be baptized for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:50 pm

While I find myself sympathetic with Paidion's view of Baptism in that he believes it is more than simply a symbolic act, I must disagree with his understanding of "for the remission (aphesis) of sins" in the Greek of the New Testament.

This phrase is used several times, three of which I feel are adequate to illustrate my point:

1. Matthew 26:28, Jesus informs us "For this is my blood of the New Covenent, which is shed for many for the remission of sins".

2. Mark 1:4 informs us John was "preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins".

3. Acts 2:38, Peter informs the crowd to "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.....".

It should be noted that the phrase for the remission of sins is exactly the same in the Greek in each case.

What is the meaning of the Greek word aphesis? Paidion is only partly correct. The root words in Greek are apo, from, and hiemi, to put in motion, send. It could mean to send away, to loose, to leave, dispatch, to discharge (e.g., arrows), to give up. The legal use is important: to loose from a legal bond, to acquit, to exempt (from guilt, obligation, or punishment). Thus aphesis may be translated release, pardon, or remission (forgiveness).

I believe the meaning of the baptism preached by John was repentance. John preached a baptism "of repentance". This baptism was a requirement for forgiveness of sins.

Jesus died "for the remission (forgiveness) of sins"; his death was the procuring cause of forgiveness for all who have faith in Him.

We are baptized "for the remission of sins". The meaning of our baptism includes both repentance and faith in Christ. It is my belief that this is the occasion of our being forgiven, at least normatively. Baptism is a sign from God that we are forgiven.

Note: It is strange to hear it argued that the Greek word eis, "for", in Acts 2:38 should mean "because of". Would the exact same phrase in Matthew 26:28 mean Jesus died "because of the remission of sins"? Eis has never been proven to have this meaning.

I heartily agree with Paidion that remission of sins also provides us with the power to overcome sin in our lives and restores us to fellowship with God

Post by **_Swiftelk** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:33 pm

Paidion...

To expound on the second question

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

There are two baptisms being spoken about here. What is the differance?If you were regenerated in John's baptism of repentance, then why be rebaptized?

Post by **_TK** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:52 pm

before the apostles gean baptizing in the name of Jesus, john's baptism was a valid baptism. this is why apparently the disciples were not re-baptized, and apparently apollos was not re-baptized either. however, those believers who were baptized with john's baptism AFTER the disciples had begun baptizing in the name of jesus had to be re-baptized, because john's baptism was no longer valid. the ephesian believers fell under this category.

TO PAIDION: when you say that people who willfully refuse baptism are not regenerated, what do you mean? in other words, what, in your view, is the consequence of not being regenerated?

TK

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:39 pm

There are two baptisms being spoken about here. What is the differance?If you were regenerated in John's baptism of repentance, then why be rebaptized?

Swiftelk, I truly thought I had answered this question in my initial response. I said:

The difference in baptism before the death of Christ from baptism after the death of Christ, does not lie the matter of salvation, but in the matter of receiving the Holy Spirit. It was after the resurrection of Christ, that the Holy Spirit was sent, and came upon the disciples with power.

The passage you quoted concerning the "two baptisms" bears this out.
They are preceded by the verses:

1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John’s baptism."

If today, if a modern charismatic or pentecostal heard that someone had not received the holy spirit, it would never occur to them to question their baptism. Most likely they would ask the person to "seek the baptism of the Spirit" or they would lay hands on the person, praying that the person might receive Spirit baptism.

Paul, however, knew that when a person was baptized, he received the Spirit of God. Since these disciples hadn't, there must have been a problem with their baptism. While Jesus lived on earth He said, "for it [the Spirit] dwells with you, and will be in you." So those who received John's baptism did not receive the Spirit to dwell within them permanently, nor did those who received Christ's baptism before He died and was raised. But after He was raised, those who were baptized received the Spirit, even as Peter said they would. Therefore, Paul was able to say:

Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. Rom 8:9

TK:

when you say that people who willfully refuse baptism are not regenerated, what do you mean? in other words, what, in your view, is the consequence of not being regenerated?

The consequences of not being regenerated are not being able to overcome wrongdoing and not being able to live righteously before God. And this will result in God's having to correct the unregenerated people in Gehenna. Their correction will be possible only though Christ. They must submit to Christ the same as you and I have done and continue doing. Refusing to be baptized is refusal to submit to Christ.

Peter said to those who were cut to the heart, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Repentance and baptism are necessary.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If belief alone is sufficient, why would the author add "and is baptized"?

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:02 pm

TK,

Your post raises some interesting questions:

How do we know the Apostles had been baptized by John?

How do we know they were not baptized after Jesus' resurrection?

How could a person receive Christian baptism before Christ's death? Paul says in Romans 6:3 "as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death". How could this occur before His Death?

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:18 pm

How could a person receive Christian baptism before Christ's death? Paul says in Romans 6:3 "as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death". How could this occur before His Death?

When Paul penned those words, he seems to have been referring only to those who were baptized after Christ's death. Nevertheless, surely those who were baptized by Christ Himself, (or rather, not by Christ but His disciples) had received "Christian baptism"!

Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), he left Judea and departed again to Galilee. John 4:1-3

But even though it seems appropriate to call this "Christian baptism", the Holy Spirit was not given until after Christ was raised.

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:32 pm

Good point Paidion. Do you think Jesus disciples were baptizing "in anticipation" of His death? Christian baptism seems always to be baptism "into" (eis, denoting progression into or toward) Jesus name (person).

Post by **_TK** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:41 am

a lot of the commentators think that the disciples who were baptized by john were not re-baptized because at the time they were baptized, it was the only authorized baptism.
___________

Paidion-- in other words, you believe that people who are willfully not baptized are going to hell (at least for a period of time). correct?

i am interested in this because the denomimation i attend (evangelical friends-- quakers a long time ago) downplay the sacraments. we havent had a baptism service in over a year. believe me, i am doing what i can do to change this mentality in our church. i was raised baptist, after all. if what you say is correct, i need to do so much more urgently.

TK