silly pondering of the saints raised at jesus death?

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_psychohmike
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Post by _psychohmike » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:35 pm

Jim from covina wrote:To say that no messiah is needed for salvation to me contradicts the hope of the coming messiah in the OT.

That may be the case...........but it wasnt the case for the Ninevites, so i dont know how you can hold that position......?

jd
So...let me get this straight. God can save people however he choses.

The need for a messiah though was based on the covenant relationship that Israel had with God.

I guess that would jive with Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He[Jesus] is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

So then is it possible that we, because we aren't under the old covenant, don't have a need to be saved from a death that no longer has dominion over us?
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_Jim from covina
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Post by _Jim from covina » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:15 pm

WELL, PSycho.........
So...let me get this straight. God can save people however he choses.

It certainly appears that way. AT least in the O.T. But they had to repent from wickedness and evil..........seemingly the same thing as the jews in the o.t. (by staying in the Covenant/agreement/relationship w/ God) and the "church" in the n.t. So...........?

So then is it possible that we, because we aren't under the old covenant, don't have a need to be saved from a death that no longer has dominion over us?
hmmm...........maybe...........maybe we have to be saved from something else? Or have to get "into" something.............?

love
jimd
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_psychohmike
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Post by _psychohmike » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:30 pm

Jim from covina wrote:
So then is it possible that we, because we aren't under the old covenant, don't have a need to be saved from a death that no longer has dominion over us?
hmmm...........maybe...........maybe we have to be saved from something else? Or have to get "into" something.............?

love
jimd
Good point...how can we be under a covenant curse if we were never under the covenant? Or better yet...how can one fall off of a table if they were never on it?

I guess maybe we are simply a law unto ourselves...like it says in Romans.
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_Jim from covina
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Post by _Jim from covina » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:15 pm

Psycho said
I guess maybe we are simply a law unto ourselves...like it says in Romans.
And what does that mean? Expound please.
jd
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:55 pm

Those under the Old Covenant had to live righteous lives just as we do, in order to be acceptable to God. They had to overcome wrongdoing through faith, just as we do. They had to be delivered from sin through the Messiah just as we do, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we can be saved. True, the Messiah had not yet died. So they looked forward to His coming; we look backward to His death and resurrection as well as to His present ministry. In either case, it is all through Him!

There is no way to overcome sin except by faith. Faith is necessary for deliverance from sin.

And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. Hebrews 11:6

The writer of Hebrews tells of the many things that people in OT days accomplished through faith, things which they could never have accomplished in their own strength.

Hebrews 12 continues with the same theme ---- the necessity of holiness made possible by faith:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

We are exhorted to look to Jesus in faith, the One who was the pioneer of faith, showing us the way to lay aside every sin through faith.

Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

True indeed! In our struggle against sin we have not yet resisted to the point of shedding our blood. Jesus, the pioneer of our faith, on the other hand, did resist to the shedding of His blood. "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered" Hebrews 5:8
How many of us struggle against sin? How many of us think it even necessary too resist? We are all covered by the blood, aren't we? Why fight it? Jesus is our substitute. We'll get to heaven anyway! That's not the way the writer to the Hebrews understood the struggle against sin!

And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? —"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.

Part of God's enabling grace which through Christ enables us to overcome sin, comes through His discipline. Faith on our part is required even for this. Otherwise, we will not recognize what is happening to us as God's discipline.

For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

The "peaceful fruit of righteousness" is what it's all about! We need it. And we can have it, through faith in God. It's not self-righteousness. It's real righteousness made available by means the enabling grace of God, appropriated by faith, and often encouraged by God's discipline.

Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:1-14

The holiness without which no one will see the Lord, does not come easy. It is something for which we must strive. As we strive for it, we'll be accused of relying on works righteousness instead of on Christ's blood. But that's all right. We may follow our great Pioneer who showed us the way. All praise to the One who not only provided us through His death, a way to living the overcoming life, but also provided us with the great example of Himself, the One who always trusted in His Father, never making the smallest decision to act except in harmony with Him.
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_Arthur
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Re: silly pondering of the saints raised at jesus death?

Post by _Arthur » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:02 pm

Jim wrote:As I am reading revelations and John speaks that what he is writting are things from the past, current and future. So here I am reading Rev chapter 20 when I read this 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

I then recall this verse: Mat 27:51-53 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now assuming that Rev 20 is speaking of the entire of church History, could the first ressurection have occured at Jesus ressurection, with the OT saints being raised to life and now live with Him in heaven?

Ok start the ripping apart my flight of ponder?

Jim



"and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

This is an addition by men to the text.

It has no support from any other scripture and contadicts scripture.

The statement itself contradicts itself.

There is no evidence of this occuring from other sourses either.



Arthur.
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_psychohmike
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Re: silly pondering of the saints raised at jesus death?

Post by _psychohmike » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:57 pm

"and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

This is an addition by men to the text.

It has no support from any other scripture and contadicts scripture.

The statement itself contradicts itself.

There is no evidence of this occuring from other sourses either.



Arthur.
You're reasoning seems to be rather falacious. The Bible is filled with lots of stuff like that.

Here's one for example.

Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Do we also chuck this one since it is the only mention of it in the Bible? Or do we chuck your method of interpretation that requires that passage to go away, just because it doesn't fit your view?
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_Arthur
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Re: silly pondering of the saints raised at jesus death?

Post by _Arthur » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:16 am

psychohmike wrote:
"and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

This is an addition by men to the text.

It has no support from any other scripture and contadicts scripture.

The statement itself contradicts itself.

There is no evidence of this occuring from other sourses either.



Arthur.
You're reasoning seems to be rather falacious. The Bible is filled with lots of stuff like that.

Here's one for example.

Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

Do we also chuck this one since it is the only mention of it in the Bible? Or do we chuck your method of interpretation that requires that passage to go away, just because it doesn't fit your view?

Psychomike,

Can you give a reasoned response to the points that I bought up--

1. It ------------------- contradicts scripture.

2. The statement itself contradicts itself.

3. There is no evidence of this occuring from other sourses either.


Thanks.

Arthur.
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Re: silly pondering of the saints raised at jesus death?

Post by _psychohmike » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:00 am

Arthur wrote:
psychohmike wrote:
"and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

This is an addition by men to the text.

It has no support from any other scripture and contadicts scripture.

The statement itself contradicts itself.

There is no evidence of this occuring from other sourses either.

Statement 1: This is an addition by men to the text.
This is simply an assertion. You offered no proof of this whatsoever.

Statement 2: It has no support from any other scripture and contadicts scripture.
Being the only instance in scripture does nothing to negate it's value as accurate. It only means that there was one account. And it only contradicts scripture if your understanding of scripture is limited to a wooden sense of literalism.

Statement 3: The statement itself contradicts itself.
Based on your method of interpretation...which you have never even explained, which makes this assertion unconvincing in and of itself. You'll need to explain how this VERSE contradicts ITSELF.

Statement 4: There is no evidence of this occuring from other sourses either.
We don't disagree. Although this adds nothing to your argument.

Your Welcome
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_Arthur
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Post by _Arthur » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:51 pm

Statement 1: This is an addition by men to the text.
This is simply an assertion. You offered no proof of this whatsoever.
You did not ask for any proof. You instead made a judgment that my reasoning is fallacious without you giving any sensible reason for your judgment, except to rant.

The proper thing to do is to ask for the reasons for my statements. It is improper to give truths to those who prejudge the matter and the speaker before examining the case. In fact it is a sin spoken of in the bible.

No single matter is complete proof in itself but collectively they all point to the same thing, that the scripture has been invented and inserted into the text by evil men.

You see, I do not care if you believe what I am going to say or not. I am quite interested in the subject for myself, as I do not post for the benefit of anyone else . Experience has taught me that the Lord opens eyes and also blinds people according to their own decisions to walk with Him in Spirit and in truth or not, so that many become quite knowledgeable of scripture yet walk in darkness and do not know it, being blind to their own public declaration of it.

Statement 2: It has no support from any other scripture and contadicts scripture.
Being the only instance in scripture does nothing to negate it's value as accurate. It only means that there was one account. And it only contradicts scripture if your understanding of scripture is limited to a wooden sense of literalism.
The scripture --

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Look at the context.

Here is other accounts of the time—

Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
Mar 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
Mar 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Luk 23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

The two insertions are—

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

Statement 3: The statement itself contradicts itself.
Based on your method of interpretation...which you have never even explained, which makes this assertion unconvincing in and of itself. You'll need to explain how this VERSE contradicts ITSELF.
You might like to explain how you know my method of interpretation when you admit that you do not know what it is.

The verses contradict themselves by –

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many

The graves are opened and the saints arise from the dead , yet did not come out of their graves until after the resurrection, 3 days later.

We are being asked to believe that these saints who arose from the dead, did so before the resurrection of Christ.

We are also expected to believe that only many of the saints and not all of them arose. Now what qualified the few to this rising from the dead to the exclusion of others.

David is declared by Peter to be still in his grave at the time of Pentecost. Would he not have been more qualified to arise than most?

There is no record in the bible of anyone being raised from the dead, without some communication from one who possesses such an authority and Jesus Himself was dead at the time of these saints rising and no other communication is recorded as happening at that time.

If many saints did arise from the dead and were seen by many then it ought to have made quite a stir which is neither mentioned elsewhere at the time in the bible , or recorded by any historian.

There is no prophetic word in the OT concerning these saints raising, nor any mention of them in the NT writings afterward.

Neither are they typed by anything in the Temple worship.

It was also not the event which God wanted men to be drawn to notice at the time.

If any of these raised from the dead saints were alive after the resurrection of Jesus then surely they would have been in the company of the other saints, but nothing is mentioned of them.

The impossibility of them being raised in bodies, the same as that of the resurrection of Jesus should be obvious. Therfore they were mortal bodies.




Statement 4: There is no evidence of this occuring from other sourses either.
We don't disagree. Although this adds nothing to your argument.
Then I ask you to provide this evidence from other sources.

Thanks.

Arthur.
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