How many Calvinists/Arminians do we have?

[Guest]

I declaimed any label until I realized that I was somewhere in between what is known as a High Calvinist or a Hyper Calvinist. Ever since then I've been entirely comfortable with the term "Hyper Calvinist."

Hugh

[Guest]

I have been reading a good bit of Openeness doctrine for awhile now. I find their views of God's Omniscience unconvincing and illogical.

First, they always state God CANNOT know future free-will decisions becasue there is nothing to know. Where does the Bible say that??? That is a glaring problem--they state the foundational assumption of this doctrine WITH NO PROOF, but mere repetition, as if repetition MAKES it true.

Second, how can God know his creatures so well that He can accurately predict what they will do differ in any real way from Him actually knowing what they will do??? I mean really, as if there is a substantial difference! I see know difference in the two propositions. Either way GOD CERTAINLY KNOWS what each person will do, whether He can scan the future and see it, or knows us so well that He can guess right every time. There is no difference.

Thirdly, God knowing what we will do DOES NOT take away free-will. As Watson said generations ago, this argument is sophistry. If I know who will win tommorrow's basketball game in no way influences that game. It has no bearing upon the players. I am the only one affected by this knowledge. The game's outcome is decided by the players, not me.

So it is with God, though He does use his omniscience to fulfill His purposes without violating man's free-will. its easy for Him, and He even accomodates His plans based on man's decision, like giving Israel a King, even though He didn't want them to have one, then He sent the Messiah based on that Kingly line. Such accomodations are no big deal.

Anyway, absolute foreknowledge affects nothing, and sayig it does over and over does not make it so.


I am trying to give Openess a fair shake, but the abover is my problem with it.

[Guest]

Hi Super,

In my opinion, this is a good point:

Second, how can God know his creatures so well that He can accurately predict what they will do differ in any real way from Him actually knowing what they will do??? I mean really, as if there is a substantial difference! I see know difference in the two propositions. Either way GOD CERTAINLY KNOWS what each person will do, whether He can scan the future and see it, or knows us so well that He can guess right every time. There is no difference.

Thanks for posting it.

The other two points I've read before. I'm trying to give Open View Theology a fair shake, too.

[Guest]

I have been reading a good bit of Openeness doctrine for awhile now. I find their views of God's Omniscience unconvincing and illogical.

Since I had come to the conclusions of "Open Theists" decades ago, it didn't take any convincing for me. After I became aware of the existence of "Open Theism", I purchased one of John Sanders' book, and several of Gregory Boyd. The main points of these books confirmed my own understanding in a scholarly way.

I also purchased Divine Foreknowledge Four Views, with contributions by Gregory Boyd (Open Theist), David Hunt (Simple Foreknowledge), William Craig (Middle Knowledge), and Paul Helm (Augustinian-Calvinist). All articles and rebuttals were written in a philosophical fashion with some scriptural references.

I read this book, and studied it, trying to understand the arguments of all parties. It was only Gregory Boyd's arguments that I found convincing and logical. I suppose you would explain that by noting that I had already reached similar conclusions, but actually, I was open to the possibility that one of the others might be more convincing. They were not.

First, they always state God CANNOT know future free-will decisions becasue there is nothing to know. Where does the Bible say that??? That is a glaring problem--they state the foundational assumption of this doctrine WITH NO PROOF, but mere repetition, as if repetition MAKES it true.

Unfortunately, there is not a biblical proof text for everything that is true. But there certainly are a lot of biblical texts which indicate that God does not know in advance what people will choose. I won't go into them now, since you must be aware of them if you have read books by open theists.

Second, how can God know his creatures so well that He can accurately predict what they will do differ in any real way from Him actually knowing what they will do??? I mean really, as if there is a substantial difference! I see know difference in the two propositions. Either way GOD CERTAINLY KNOWS what each person will do, whether He can scan the future and see it, or knows us so well that He can guess right every time. There is no difference.

He is not right every time, and that is the difference.
Let me know if you want texts that illustrate this.

Thirdly, God knowing what we will do DOES NOT take away free-will. As Watson said generations ago, this argument is sophistry. If I know who will win tommorrow's basketball game in no way influences that game. It has no bearing upon the players. I am the only one affected by this knowledge. The game's outcome is decided by the players, not me.

No one that I know, and certainly none of the open theists whom I have read, affirm that God's knowledge takes away free-will. This is a misunderstanding of the position and logic which open theists set forth.
What they are saying is that anyone knowing in advance what a free-will agent will choose is an inherently self-contradictory statement. It is just as self-contradictory as saying that an omnipotent being could create a stone so large that he couldn't lift it.

So it is with God, though He does use his omniscience to fulfill His purposes without violating man's free-will. its easy for Him, and He even accomodates His plans based on man's decision, like giving Israel a King, even though He didn't want them to have one, then He sent the Messiah based on that Kingly line. Such accomodations are no big deal.

Is it not a "big deal" if God says He will do one thing, and then changes His mind and does another based on human choices?

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 18:7-10 NRSV

In the first example, if God knew in advance that the nation would repent, would He declare that He would destroy it? Would that not be a lie?
In the second example, if God knew the nation would do evil in His sight, why would He declare that He would build it and plant it? Why would He change His mind, if He already knew?

Anyway, absolute foreknowledge affects nothing, and sayig it does over and over does not make it so.

This is the second time in this post that you have attacked a straw man. No one is saying that it does.

[Guest]

Is it not a "big deal" if God says He will do one thing, and then changes His mind and does another based on human choices?

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 18:7-10 NRSV

In the first example, if God knew in advance that the nation would repent, would He declare that He would destroy it? Would that not be a lie?
In the second example, if God knew the nation would do evil in His sight, why would He declare that He would build it and plant it? Why would He change His mind, if He already knew?

I do this with my children, it makes a great motivational tool. Threaten them with discipline, telling them that they've already "crossed the line" and they repent.

Might be something about the nature of the human heart that seems to only respond to "it's too late now".

[Guest]

thats a good bit for me to go over and dwell on, i'll respond at a later time

Devin,
Have you had enough time yet? 8)

[Guest]

ahh, wow, its been a while, and i still have not developed a response, i am still planning to but i am also really BUSY, so it could be sooner, or later, but i hope to respond eventually.............

[Guest]

Concerning “Salvation”

Calvinist View

1. If you look for it, you can’t find it.
2. If you find it, you haven’t got it.
3. If you’ve got it, you can’t lose it.
4. If you lose it, you never had it.

Arminian View

1. If you look for it, you can find it.
2. If you find it, you’ve got it.
3. If you’ve got it, you can lose it.
4. If you lose it, you’ve had it.