Yes, have him sit in a cemetery in the middle of the night. The "spirit" will move him...if not in a religious fashion, certainly running right out of the cemetery. Then again, the spirit that you are probably referring to is the Holy Spirit/Ghost that descended upon Jesus or the Twelve at Pentecost.
The spirit that he will be feeling will be those that are described in Heb 12:1. These spirits/cloud of witnesses are those that have passed on and are with God witnessing all that we do and the truth of Jesus. Since a witness can hear and see everything then there is a probability (per scripture) they will see your friend. If so many comedian spirits have passed on maybe they will then tap your friend on the shoulder (in good fun) as "proof" that some type of spirit exists (good or bad). Then your friend will be at least start thinking about "spirits", so later he may be open to any discussion of "The Spirit".
Then again, maybe I'm getting too Catholic for everyone. Catholic Steve
Prove to me that Spirit exists
spirits and the Holy Spirit
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Mort_Coyle
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Hebrews 12:1 is probably not a good scripture to cite in this regard. The "cloud of witnesses" does not refer to the departed who watch our activities from Heaven. It refers to those who's lives were marked by great faith. Reviewing their lives serves as a witness to us (and particularly to the original hearers of the Letter to the Hebrews) that we too should live by faith.The spirit that he will be feeling will be those that are described in Heb 12:1. These spirits/cloud of witnesses are those that have passed on and are with God witnessing all that we do and the truth of Jesus. Since a witness can hear and see everything then there is a probability (per scripture) they will see your friend.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Heb 12:1 "...surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses..." is a discussion of the heros of the past (ie, Gideon, Barak, Samson, David, Samuel & Prophets) who have been mentioned in Heb 11 (per the NIV International Bible Society).
The imagery is a "cloud", something that is aloft, above us and enveloping. "Witness" is one who can provide evidence of a truth, generally one who has seen, heard or touched said truth. Therefore, if a witness can see, hear or touch they have sensory input and output (spiritual, not physical, I assume). Since these witnesses are scriptural heros of the past that have been a witness to God who are certainly not physically alive, I think it would be a fair assumption that they are very much alive with God, correct? Do these heros exist with God in spirit or physical form? I thought when we die we leave these corruptible body's behind and assume our place in a spiritual heaven, therefore making the assumption that this "cloud of witnesses" are spiritual is as credible as anyone's. In reality we do not know how we exist in heaven.
Certainly reviewing our lives contrasted to those past scriptural heros is wise and good, as you say, but unfortunately you appear to water-down the very words of scripture. You can not take away from the direct words of scripture.. "surrounded" (we are enveloped)...."cloud" (something is above us, aloft, in heaven's space) ...."witnesses" (those who have evidence of a truth). It does not say we are to "witness" them, as you say, it actually says (read it again) .... THEY are the witnesses, not us.
Those NT heros in Heb 12:1 are certainly greater that the OT hero types, right? So if the bones of an OT hero can heal a dead man, why would you limit a NT hero in heaven from "witnessing" what we are doing now on earth? Christ's Peace.
Catholic Steve
The imagery is a "cloud", something that is aloft, above us and enveloping. "Witness" is one who can provide evidence of a truth, generally one who has seen, heard or touched said truth. Therefore, if a witness can see, hear or touch they have sensory input and output (spiritual, not physical, I assume). Since these witnesses are scriptural heros of the past that have been a witness to God who are certainly not physically alive, I think it would be a fair assumption that they are very much alive with God, correct? Do these heros exist with God in spirit or physical form? I thought when we die we leave these corruptible body's behind and assume our place in a spiritual heaven, therefore making the assumption that this "cloud of witnesses" are spiritual is as credible as anyone's. In reality we do not know how we exist in heaven.
Certainly reviewing our lives contrasted to those past scriptural heros is wise and good, as you say, but unfortunately you appear to water-down the very words of scripture. You can not take away from the direct words of scripture.. "surrounded" (we are enveloped)...."cloud" (something is above us, aloft, in heaven's space) ...."witnesses" (those who have evidence of a truth). It does not say we are to "witness" them, as you say, it actually says (read it again) .... THEY are the witnesses, not us.
Those NT heros in Heb 12:1 are certainly greater that the OT hero types, right? So if the bones of an OT hero can heal a dead man, why would you limit a NT hero in heaven from "witnessing" what we are doing now on earth? Christ's Peace.
Catholic Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hebrews 12 and beyond
If Heb 12 still has you wondering if we are being witnessed/observed by those that have passed on/dead in heaven please read Matthew and Luke regarding the transfiguration. Of course Jesus has yet to die on the cross and as the 2nd part of the Trinity Jesus can do as he pleases, but mere dead men can not, right? Well, Elijah and Moses do exactly what Heb 12 tells us. Read Matthew and Luke....
Matthew 17:1-3
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Luke 9:30
30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31 appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.
So we have a very interesting situation. Two very dead men appear with Jesus, who is now transfigured as white as light. While this is happening three very alive men are actually using their sense of "sight" to observe this. During this occurrence with dead/spiritual men, the three alive men also use their other sense to "hear" these dead men talking to Jesus. As Sienfeld would say "get outa here"! It even gets better, the three alive men actually hear what the dead men are talking about..."they spoke of his [Jesus] departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem".
Have you ever been at a restaurant and all of a sudden you start to listen to the conversation at the next table? Most have and if not, it will happen one day. When this happens you are actually beginning the "communication" process. You are taking in auditory information and now, if you wish, you can talk to the next table about their conversation or ask them politely to keep quiet. In essence, this happens daily in a number of instances...elevators, crowded rooms, ball games..etc. The problem here in Scripture is that some type of communication has presented itself to very alive men who actually heard the conversation of very dead men. We know that it to be 100% Scriptural truth, right? Now, how do we deal with such truth?
Most Protestants disdain any though that the spiritually dead are as alive with us, as in Heb 12, and that these dead are simultaneously spiritually alive with God. Protestants think that once you die that there is no communication backwards, therefore Catholics are nuts. The problem continues as Protestants throw out the baby with the bathwater when they nullify Matt 17 and Luke 9 as a fluke of Scripture. Scripture commands us, as believers in Christ, to love and pray for one another because there is a spiritual bond as believers. If when we die and we are spiritually in heaven and now can absorb 100% of God's love and understanding far greater than our earthy/corrupted minds could understand on earth .... why or what would God benefit from by separating earthy/corruptible believers from spiritual believers in heaven who are now pure and uncorrupted? Why ask my Protestant friend to pray for my illness (problem) when I can simply ask God? Well, God wants that interplay, that inter-change between His believers...that is the love God tells us of ... care for your brother. Do you think that our spiritual brothers and sisters in heaven care for us less now that they are in heaven? That appears to be crazy and unsupported by Scripture.
Still have a problem with the dead who are in spirit form and talking to them? Need some more Scripture? Go to Acts 9:40. Peter prays to/for a dead woman (Remember this is a dead person, gone, outa here, spiritually with God). Ironically, everyone there is a believing Christian, yet they call upon Peter only! Peter then goes into the room alone (no other believers), closes the door and says "In the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ, arise"!!! NO NO NO...Read it again, Peter never even invokes the name of Jesus. Peter simply turns to the DEAD person and calls her by name saying "Tabitha, get up" and she does!!! No prayer group. No holding hands and nobody told Peter he can not talk to a DEAD person, let alone the dead would even listen without using Jesus' name! But remember, she was a dead BELIEVER! What do we have in Heb 12, Matt 17, Lk 9? All are believers! Well, kick me outa bed ..... Christians talking/communicating with believing dead folk!
Even the spiritual people in heaven are talking to the spiritually dead in hell if you care to read Luke 16.
Lk 16: 22-24
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."
The rich man knows he will never leave hell and asks Abraham to tell Lazarus (very much dead also, but a believer) to give him water and/or warn his brothers. Of course, Abraham knows that the rich man in hell can never leave and scolds this man with a lesson about his brothers and belief, but don't lose the fact that both the spiritual believer in heaven (Abraham) and the spiritual non-believer in hell (rich man) can communicate and both acknowledge that a dead believer can be asked of something (the non-believer acknowledges per his request and Abraham acknowledges this by simply asking, and I paraphrase, "why bother Lazarus, when your brothers didn't even listen to Moses and the prophets."
So again, maybe in that cloud of believing witnesses who have listened to your (believer) appeal/prayer to reach your co-worker friend something miraculous will occur. Something like that which happened in Matthew, Luke or Acts may occur or something as a simple tap on his shoulder. Christ Peace to my Catholic and Protestant believers in Christ.
Catholic Steve
Matthew 17:1-3
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Luke 9:30
30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31 appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.
So we have a very interesting situation. Two very dead men appear with Jesus, who is now transfigured as white as light. While this is happening three very alive men are actually using their sense of "sight" to observe this. During this occurrence with dead/spiritual men, the three alive men also use their other sense to "hear" these dead men talking to Jesus. As Sienfeld would say "get outa here"! It even gets better, the three alive men actually hear what the dead men are talking about..."they spoke of his [Jesus] departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem".
Have you ever been at a restaurant and all of a sudden you start to listen to the conversation at the next table? Most have and if not, it will happen one day. When this happens you are actually beginning the "communication" process. You are taking in auditory information and now, if you wish, you can talk to the next table about their conversation or ask them politely to keep quiet. In essence, this happens daily in a number of instances...elevators, crowded rooms, ball games..etc. The problem here in Scripture is that some type of communication has presented itself to very alive men who actually heard the conversation of very dead men. We know that it to be 100% Scriptural truth, right? Now, how do we deal with such truth?
Most Protestants disdain any though that the spiritually dead are as alive with us, as in Heb 12, and that these dead are simultaneously spiritually alive with God. Protestants think that once you die that there is no communication backwards, therefore Catholics are nuts. The problem continues as Protestants throw out the baby with the bathwater when they nullify Matt 17 and Luke 9 as a fluke of Scripture. Scripture commands us, as believers in Christ, to love and pray for one another because there is a spiritual bond as believers. If when we die and we are spiritually in heaven and now can absorb 100% of God's love and understanding far greater than our earthy/corrupted minds could understand on earth .... why or what would God benefit from by separating earthy/corruptible believers from spiritual believers in heaven who are now pure and uncorrupted? Why ask my Protestant friend to pray for my illness (problem) when I can simply ask God? Well, God wants that interplay, that inter-change between His believers...that is the love God tells us of ... care for your brother. Do you think that our spiritual brothers and sisters in heaven care for us less now that they are in heaven? That appears to be crazy and unsupported by Scripture.
Still have a problem with the dead who are in spirit form and talking to them? Need some more Scripture? Go to Acts 9:40. Peter prays to/for a dead woman (Remember this is a dead person, gone, outa here, spiritually with God). Ironically, everyone there is a believing Christian, yet they call upon Peter only! Peter then goes into the room alone (no other believers), closes the door and says "In the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ, arise"!!! NO NO NO...Read it again, Peter never even invokes the name of Jesus. Peter simply turns to the DEAD person and calls her by name saying "Tabitha, get up" and she does!!! No prayer group. No holding hands and nobody told Peter he can not talk to a DEAD person, let alone the dead would even listen without using Jesus' name! But remember, she was a dead BELIEVER! What do we have in Heb 12, Matt 17, Lk 9? All are believers! Well, kick me outa bed ..... Christians talking/communicating with believing dead folk!
Even the spiritual people in heaven are talking to the spiritually dead in hell if you care to read Luke 16.
Lk 16: 22-24
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."
The rich man knows he will never leave hell and asks Abraham to tell Lazarus (very much dead also, but a believer) to give him water and/or warn his brothers. Of course, Abraham knows that the rich man in hell can never leave and scolds this man with a lesson about his brothers and belief, but don't lose the fact that both the spiritual believer in heaven (Abraham) and the spiritual non-believer in hell (rich man) can communicate and both acknowledge that a dead believer can be asked of something (the non-believer acknowledges per his request and Abraham acknowledges this by simply asking, and I paraphrase, "why bother Lazarus, when your brothers didn't even listen to Moses and the prophets."
So again, maybe in that cloud of believing witnesses who have listened to your (believer) appeal/prayer to reach your co-worker friend something miraculous will occur. Something like that which happened in Matthew, Luke or Acts may occur or something as a simple tap on his shoulder. Christ Peace to my Catholic and Protestant believers in Christ.
Catholic Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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This primer on a proof of a spirit has been interesting because it forced me to read all about the Holy Spirit and the spiritual believers in heaven and how Scripture demonstrates their interaction with alive earthly believers.
One of the greatest scriptural proofs that the dead spiritual saints in heaven communicate with the alive earthly believers is the Book of Revelation by John. Depending on your take on this book as to its language being factually real or rhetorical imagery, you will still find truth here that supports Heb 12 "cloud of witnesses" which is participatory language of those believers who have passed on. This participatory language can also be seen in Matthew, Luke or Acts as discussed previously.
How great is the participation of the dead spiritually saints with the alive earthly saints when they actually hold our prayers to God? Simply read Rev 5:8. They actually hold ALL the prayers of the saints before they go up to God. They hold bowls filled with the prayers of saints [alive earthly believers] that go up as incense whiffing up to God. WOW. This is not another fluke of Scripture because it is reinforced in Rev 8:3.
Rev 5:8
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders [dead believers] fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints [alive saints].
This is not another fluke of Scripture because it is reinforced in Rev 8:3
Revelation 8:1-6
1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.
Now get a hold of this in Rev 6. Here under the altar of the kingdom of God are those believers that have been slain preaching God's Word, so these believers are deader than a door nail. Yet, these dead believers have the ability to call out to God to avenge their deaths.
Revelation 6:9-17
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
What does God tell them? "No, such hatred from you heavenly saints shall never happen because you are dead and are not separated from those on earth. Therefore, you can not influence God". Nope, God tells them .... "they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." God does not tell them that they will not be avenged but to "wait" and then it will happen in a little while longer. So, the heavenly believing saints can "witness" all of us.
Your co-worker friend would have a tough time absorbing these Scriptural truths, unlike yourself, but maybe if you got your co-worker to admit the presence of good and evil spirits then you'd have a common platform to go from. If there are these types of spirits then there has to be a hierarchy of these spiritual being, ie, one is Satan and one God. Therefore, you very well may have convinced your friend with their own understanding of spirits with good and evil. Later, maybe they will be able to tie in that 3rd part of the Trinitarian God is the Holy Spirit.
Happy Easter, Catholic Steve
One of the greatest scriptural proofs that the dead spiritual saints in heaven communicate with the alive earthly believers is the Book of Revelation by John. Depending on your take on this book as to its language being factually real or rhetorical imagery, you will still find truth here that supports Heb 12 "cloud of witnesses" which is participatory language of those believers who have passed on. This participatory language can also be seen in Matthew, Luke or Acts as discussed previously.
How great is the participation of the dead spiritually saints with the alive earthly saints when they actually hold our prayers to God? Simply read Rev 5:8. They actually hold ALL the prayers of the saints before they go up to God. They hold bowls filled with the prayers of saints [alive earthly believers] that go up as incense whiffing up to God. WOW. This is not another fluke of Scripture because it is reinforced in Rev 8:3.
Rev 5:8
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders [dead believers] fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints [alive saints].
This is not another fluke of Scripture because it is reinforced in Rev 8:3
Revelation 8:1-6
1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.
Now get a hold of this in Rev 6. Here under the altar of the kingdom of God are those believers that have been slain preaching God's Word, so these believers are deader than a door nail. Yet, these dead believers have the ability to call out to God to avenge their deaths.
Revelation 6:9-17
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
What does God tell them? "No, such hatred from you heavenly saints shall never happen because you are dead and are not separated from those on earth. Therefore, you can not influence God". Nope, God tells them .... "they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." God does not tell them that they will not be avenged but to "wait" and then it will happen in a little while longer. So, the heavenly believing saints can "witness" all of us.
Your co-worker friend would have a tough time absorbing these Scriptural truths, unlike yourself, but maybe if you got your co-worker to admit the presence of good and evil spirits then you'd have a common platform to go from. If there are these types of spirits then there has to be a hierarchy of these spiritual being, ie, one is Satan and one God. Therefore, you very well may have convinced your friend with their own understanding of spirits with good and evil. Later, maybe they will be able to tie in that 3rd part of the Trinitarian God is the Holy Spirit.
Happy Easter, Catholic Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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