Does Cho deserve to go to be punished eternally?

[Guest]

that being said, i believe there are many christians who would be somewhat offended if the UR view is correct, simply because they would not think it is fair that people who snubbed their nose at God while living will ultimately be "saved" in the end. boiled down to essentials, the argument would be "why live a holy life if i can party like its 1999 and still get to heaven?" now. we have discussed the problem with this way of thinking ad nauseum elsewhere on this forum. but that is how many people would think.


TK, As you probably know, i don't have the view that Todd has because even though the lake of fire isn't eternal IMO, it still is hell and i don't wanna go there. So the only party like it's 1999 that i'm going to, is to praise God.

[Guest]

Paidion-

if you are 100% certain then of course my question has no relevance.

the evil doctrince of augustine has taken over the evangelical churches in america. are there no intellectually honest mainstream evangelical leaders (like john macarthur, for e.g.) who have the courage to admit that the eternal torment view may not be correct? why wont they, if it is so obviously incorrect?

i feel like charlie brown in the christmas episode, who cries out in despair "isnt there anybody who can tell me what christmas is all about?"

similarly, "arent there any mainstream evangelical leaders who will tell us that eternal torment in hell is not biblical?"

if UR is true, and it is so obviously true, as you hold, Paidion, then the suppression of this by mainstream evangelicals is the conspiracy of the ages, and the travesty of our time.


TK

[Guest]

if UR is true, and it is so obviously true, as you hold, Paidion, then the suppression of this by mainstream evangelicals is the conspiracy of the ages, and the travesty of our time.

I have never heard it expressed quite that way, and I feel like agreeing with the statement. But intellectually, I doubt that it is a "conspiracy". Millions of people can be convinced of falsehoods. Adolph Hitler convinced most of Germany of them, so that many who became aware of "the final solution" raised no voice of protest.

Also, I am not at all certain that the expression of universal reconciliation is suppressed, at least not in our society. However, I am sure that many people would not allow it to be taught in their churches.

I must remark, however, that the mainstream historic protestant churches do not consider it to be heresy to hold the view of universal reconciliation. A considerable number of people within these churches speculate that it might be a possibility. However, holding a non-Trinitarian position would be heresy by these churches.

As I see it, this is not the only true teaching which is supressed in churches. Some long-time staff in Bible colleges have been dismissed because of their stand with regards to open theism.

[Guest]

similarly, "arent there any mainstream evangelical leaders who will tell us that eternal torment in hell is not biblical?"

I am pretty sure that at least some leaders think that eternal torment, is not literally torture, but that the fire is figurative for God's judgement, though they are eternally separated from God. They realize that they are forever separated from Him, and this is why there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" etc. They would also reason that fire tends to burn things up (as opposed to never burning things up for eternity), as well as passages that speak of "outer darkness" (which would be odd in all that fire). They had a lot more to say, but I can't recall all of it.

I read this in The Case For Faith by Lee Strobel. It was in answer to "How could a loving God torture people forever in Hell?". He wasn't the one making the comment, but some other fellow. I gave the book away, so unfortunatly, I can't give you the reference.

[Guest]

if UR is true, and it is so obviously true, as you hold, Paidion, then the suppression of this by mainstream evangelicals is the conspiracy of the ages, and the travesty of our time.



In a way TK it was a conspiracy to suppress UR by the RCC when it became the dominant church and the ONLY early church that taught ET. Then all the traditional bible translations fell in line as no one questioned this doctrine for a long time. It's not a conspiracy at this point it's a Calvinistic type mentality now IMO.
This is how i see it now, the Calvinists like their position because whether they are right or wrong they appear to be as humble as possible by giving God ALL the credit. That's comfortable ground for them , in fact so comfortable it even trumps truth.
The ET believe that in believing what they believe they are appearing to fear God the most and that is comfortable ground for them.
In fact so comfortable it trumps even the possibility of UR being true which in their minds has an absence of a fear of God.
But feeling humble or feeling that you fear God are emotions yet in the end it's the truth that really sets you free.