Steve Gregg V. Tim Staples Debate
JC & skewed history
Dear JC,
I am sure you have read some of my earlier posts and as of late, I needed to take a break from the historical lessons to many on this forum. In doing so I was looking at some of the other post topics and saw the Steve Gregg / Tim Staples Discussion. This intrigued me because I heard the week long discussion and was very impressed by the civility of both speakers. This is something rare in the arena of theology debates.
As I read through the posts I caught some interesting comments, but yours caught my attention. Have you ever heard the term “Don’t throw rocks in a glass house [because you’re liable to find out your house will break as easy as anyone’s]”. To quickly paraphrase you, you make comments about the horrible history of the RCC.
Why is it that you (most Protestants) seem to forget your own church history that places it on par with the Catholics? Is it because the same historical “blinders” on Protestants cause these Protestants to think that “their bathroom does not smell?” The end result from such Protestants is backroom vitriol and Catholic prejudice. Maybe you need to be reminded of your past and present Protestant history that is less than “Godly”. Please, let me help you.
When Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church he did so out of anger. Ever since then, it has continued. From Luther came such Protestants as Zwingli, Calvin …. King James….Etc. They all had their own theology in interpreting scripture and how we are to worship God. From this came suppression of faith to the point of imprisonment, torture and death. Ulrich Zwingli, Luther and Calvin all had their disdain for the many Protestant theological differences that the others refused to accept. Zwingli had severe problems/disdain with the Anabaptists of Switzerland (Grebal, Manz & Reublin) but would Zwingli tolerate their theological perspective? No way! The Anabaptists were ordered by Zwingli to baptize their children or face banishment! Then with the blessing of the city of Zurich & Zwingli, the Anabaptists were forced to run out of Zurich for fear of imprisonment or even death! Wow, what tolerance these early Protestants had!
Did I forget to tell you that Luther was also a wonderful person of tolerance. So much so that he wanted to remove several NT books because he felt that they were non-scriptural and would cloud theological beliefs (other than what he believed/preached). He wanted to drop the NT books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter and Revelation! Luther also wrote the anti-Jewish thesis “Von den Juden und Aren Lugen” (On the Jews and their Lies) one of the most vindictive writings about Jews that served as a basis for Hitler’s justification to eradicate the Jews! In this he says to burn their synagogues, destroy their homes, deprive them of their prayer books and Talmud, forbid travel privileges, take their cash, silver and gold, work them at hard labor….. “therefore, away with them” (last line). Wow, almost every word of terror and suppression of faith can be found in this writing by Luther. All from the “Father” of the Reformation ….and, a born-again Christian, too!
Did I tell you what Luther said about the Jews to his associate Melancthon about the 10 Commandments? How about this ….. “We must put the whole Decalogue entirely out of our sight and out of their hearts. If Moses scares you with his stupid 10 Commandments, say to him at once ‘Take yourself off to your Jews! To the gallows with Moses!” Go get the book CHRISTAIN ANTISEMITISM and gather all your Catholic hatred material but don’t forget to read what the Protestants did, also, OK? Of Zwingli, Luther writes of him as a “…. Blasphemous, in-bedeviled, through-be-deviled and over-bedeviled heart, together with a lying jaw” …. A really spirit filled guy, huh?
Maybe that is why the contemporary of Luther, Sebastian Frank, wrote of the freedom under the theology of Martin Luther “….Even under the Papacy one had more freedom than now”. It appears that Calvin had his own problems because when he declared Servantus a heretic, Calvin had him burned to death at the stake. So just for starters, Luther, Zwingli and Calvin were very spirit filled Christians full of tolerance and never suppressed anyone or any theological beliefs …. yeah, right.
Hey, since we’re talking about the Protestant history of love and tolerance why not fast-forward to the times of England of Henry VIII and beyond …. read history how Catholic priests and Catholic Christians were chased down, imprisoned, tortured until they converted/denounced Catholicism or were killed..beheaded, cut open, drawn & quartered (remember Brave Heart?) . Churches stolen or destroyed. Again, the love of Christ shines through during those Protestant time, huh?
In the early Modern period, the Roman Catholic Church struggled to maintain its role in the face of rising secular power in Europe. As a result of these struggles, there arose a hostile attitude towards the power of the Pope and the Roman Catholic clergy. This hostility is referred to as "anti-clericalism". To this was added the epochal crisis over its spiritual authority represented by the Protestant Reformation giving rise to sectarian conflict. In contemporary times anti-Catholicism has assumed various forms, including persection of Catholics as religious minorities, assaults by governments upon Catholic faithful, discrimination, and virulent attacks on clergy and laity.
How about the near recent times of Northern Ireland and the Orange Order? What about the Protestant Orange Parade that is celebrated, to this day, as its spokespeople and media-savvy supporters describe it as a pious organisation, celebrating Protestant culture and identity, but it is accused of sectarianism and anti-Catholicism. Just a simple walk in the park, but you had not be Catholic around these boys!
Oh, did I forget how tolerant the Protestant Puritans were against anything that appeared to be a witch? Did we forget that many were burned or drowned to death. Regardless, of any potential demonic belief or not, was it right? If you say yes, then we have a problem as to what standard you apply to Catholic history and then to Protestant history.
Now, please don’t sit there and mutter …Catholics did this, they also did that…blah, blah, blah. Do you know what the “Church” is? The church has two scriptural interpretations …. 1) an authoritative body to pass on unchanged Christian doctrine but 2) it is also the “body of believers”. That body of believers are the parishioners and the church leaders…all sinful men/women….at all levels. God knows this but God also knows that His Word will continue unchanged regardless of how sinful man will be.
There is no man in scripture that is without sin except Jesus Christ. So please when you try to hold Christian standards of “holiness” (ie, 1Tim3:2-13 and Titus 6-10) to Catholic priests please do the same for Protestant pastors/ministers and realize that ALL fall short of those scriptural standards. There is no Catholic priest or Protestant minister that can pass this test …they all sin and fail at some level. Even God’s APPOINTED Apostles failed, but did the truth of the Word fail??? NO!!!
“Oh but Catholic Steve, what about all those pedophile priests”? Hmmmm, let me think about that ….. of all the vocational priests there is just the smallest fraction of criminals that tarnish the Holy work of those that have kept to their vows. Still not enough to convince you? Then I suggest that you look at your own stinky pedophile Protestant past and present history. Please go to the computer and log on to Reformation.com at http://reformation.com/. Here you will find a laundry list of just some of the very recent pedophile acts against the young. If you are too scared to look then let me give you just a few of the hundreds…..
….Eddie Thomas, pastor of St. Luke Baptist Church in Ringgold, LA., is arrested and charged with indecent behavior with a juvenile, aggravated incest and pornography involving a juvenile. Police seize videotape alleged to show sex with child (the Shreveport Times, July 17, 2003) ….
….An associate pastor of a San Fernando Valley chapel was sentenced to 32 months in prison on Tuesday for failing to register as a sex offender. Ilger, a former second-grade teacher, was convicted in 1988 of molesting four students in his San Luis Obispo classroom. After being released from jail, Ilger and his family moved to Los Angeles, where he took a position with Hope Chapel of the Valley in Canoga Park. "We've lived and learned a painful lesson," the Rev. Jeff Fischer of Hope Chapel said outside court. Fischer has said he and about 30 church elders knew that Ilger had molested young girls before he was hired. (Associated Press, April 3, 2003) ….
…. TEMECULA, CA. Six years ago, Becky J.'s life revolved around Temecula Valley Baptist Church. She worshipped there, went to school there, and even worked after hours two days a week at the school to earn pocket money. That's where she met 40-year-old Pastor Kerry Clyde Martin. But at 14, Becky didn't understand the concept of street smarts, she said. She didn't know when the man befriended her what the future held. "He listened to my problems and would tell me how right I was if I had a fight with my parents," she said. "I always thought he meant it in a pastor way, or like a father." Little did Becky know that as a cleric at two previous churches -- one in Maryland and one in Orange County -- Martin had already been accused of sexually molesting at least three other girls, all 14. Little did she know the friendly, charismatic minister was taking the first steps that would culminate in his repeatedly raping the girl over the next two years. (The Californian, Dec. 8, 2002)
If you think that these problems are limited to Catholics, and now Protestants (live and learn, my friend), then please go back to the computer and log on to this Jewish sexual abuse site so you won’t feel so alone. It is (http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/clerg ... gy%20Abuse) of Rabbinical pedophile cases! Too scared to look? Let me give you just two of those cases also….
…..Case of Rabbi Jerry Brauner (Boro Park, Brooklyn, NY) (Convicted on the charges of Sexual Abuse-1st Degree and Sexual Abuse-3rd:Subject Another Person to Sex Contact Without Consent. He was sentenced to 11 years probation, with the condition he must participate in a sex offender treatment program. Brauner has been on probation since 2002 for the sexual abuse of a 15-year-old boy. On December 27, 2006, Jerry Brauner was arrested on charges of stealing a half-million-dollar home from a cancer-stricken woman, using a forged power of attorney to sell it and pocket the profits. Brauner is being held in lieu of $85,000 bail for lying about prior sex-abuse convictions when he applied for his notary's license.)….
…..Case of Rabbi Gershon Freidlin (Colonia, NJ; Pittsburgh, PA; Washington, PA) (Rabbi Gershon Freidlin pleaded guilty to one count of child endangerment , saying he had touched the youth's penis and buttocks while applying tanning lotion on the boy on July 10, 1995 Under the terms of a plea agreement, the rabbi will not be jailed for the crime, but faces up to five years probation.)
Hey, lets just look at our Baptist friends. Any Baptists out there? Did you hear the news that the law firms are now targeting the Southern Baptist Congregation since there is less left to go after with the largest Church in the world, the Catholics?! So why not go after the Southern Baptist Conference and guess what … rich pickings here, too!!!
Southern Baptist Head Responds to Clergy Sex Abuse Cases
In the wake of increasing cases of sexual immorality among clergy, including those in the Southern Baptist Convention, the SBC head says one instance of sexual abuse by a minister is too much.
"Some persons have accused Southern Baptists of ignoring the issue and hiding behind our polity," stated Page in a Monday commentary on Baptist Press. "Let me clearly state that we believe in the autonomy of the local church as a biblical mandate. We are not hiding behind anything, except the Bible."
His comments come as a group called Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) told Southern Baptists to crack down on sexual molesters among its preachers. The group claimed in February that the SBC had been "unresponsive" to letters they sent regarding sex abuse cases that recently came up……Fresno, CA. A southwest Fresno pastor has been arrested on suspicion he had a four-year sexual relationship with a teenage boy nearly 20 years ago, Fresno police confirmed Monday. Calvin Eugene Moore, 45, a pastor at King Solomon Baptist Church, was arrested for an alleged sexual relationship he had with the boy, police said. Moore remains in the Fresno County Jail in lieu of $550,000 bail. (The Fresno Bee; October 16, 2002)….etc, etc, etc.
JC, you stated this in your post …. “The embarrassing history of the RCC…..disobedient Popes but he [Steve Gregg] could've taken this much farther and brought up the Crusades and Inquisitions….THE church tortured and murdered not only their enemies, but also fellow Christians. This doesn't match, even remotely, what the scriptures describe as the kingdom of God”. I hope next time that you make a statement, as above, you do some greater and deeper research into the ugly history of the Protestant church. If you do so then maybe you will not make such an embarrassing mis-statement or elude that the Protestant church is lily white pure as “…what the scriptures describe as the kingdom of God”.
Are you sick to your stomach yet? You should be. You should be embarrassed and apologetic to every Christian out there, both Protestant and Catholic for making such generalized accusations that you allude to. Every time you look at a Protestant minister keep in mind all the cases in Reformation.com because that is just a mere slice of the pie (only several years) of Protestant sexual abuse.
Remember it is the Church collective body of believers that is sinful. The body of believers study the truth, but they never seem to accept all the truth, thus we continue to have sin. It is the Authoritative Church that God promises as ever truthful in 1 Tim 3:15. The same authoritative body that Paul and Barnabus went to in Acts 15 because the Church collective body in Antioch was rejecting the truth they were studying.
Yes, Catholic believers and priests are sinful. So are Protestant believers and pastors/ministers. So are Jewish believers and Rabbis. I have not researched Moslems or Hindus but I’d put $20 on the table to say they are too. Sorry to be so hard on you but I am sick and tired of the sinful prejudice that pervades the Protestant churches that make their parishioners think they are so almighty righteous. I think God gets nauseated at that.
For all of you other Protestant readers (Sean, TK, Chris, Homer, Paidion, etc…sorry, Emmit, you’re not Protestant) out there. Peace be with you and let us continue to clean up our own churches before we start throwing stones in a glass house. Hey, has anyone yet come up with a good reason why Protestants continue to use a hybridized Bible as their sole standard of faith?
Catholic Steve
I am sure you have read some of my earlier posts and as of late, I needed to take a break from the historical lessons to many on this forum. In doing so I was looking at some of the other post topics and saw the Steve Gregg / Tim Staples Discussion. This intrigued me because I heard the week long discussion and was very impressed by the civility of both speakers. This is something rare in the arena of theology debates.
As I read through the posts I caught some interesting comments, but yours caught my attention. Have you ever heard the term “Don’t throw rocks in a glass house [because you’re liable to find out your house will break as easy as anyone’s]”. To quickly paraphrase you, you make comments about the horrible history of the RCC.
Why is it that you (most Protestants) seem to forget your own church history that places it on par with the Catholics? Is it because the same historical “blinders” on Protestants cause these Protestants to think that “their bathroom does not smell?” The end result from such Protestants is backroom vitriol and Catholic prejudice. Maybe you need to be reminded of your past and present Protestant history that is less than “Godly”. Please, let me help you.
When Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church he did so out of anger. Ever since then, it has continued. From Luther came such Protestants as Zwingli, Calvin …. King James….Etc. They all had their own theology in interpreting scripture and how we are to worship God. From this came suppression of faith to the point of imprisonment, torture and death. Ulrich Zwingli, Luther and Calvin all had their disdain for the many Protestant theological differences that the others refused to accept. Zwingli had severe problems/disdain with the Anabaptists of Switzerland (Grebal, Manz & Reublin) but would Zwingli tolerate their theological perspective? No way! The Anabaptists were ordered by Zwingli to baptize their children or face banishment! Then with the blessing of the city of Zurich & Zwingli, the Anabaptists were forced to run out of Zurich for fear of imprisonment or even death! Wow, what tolerance these early Protestants had!
Did I forget to tell you that Luther was also a wonderful person of tolerance. So much so that he wanted to remove several NT books because he felt that they were non-scriptural and would cloud theological beliefs (other than what he believed/preached). He wanted to drop the NT books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter and Revelation! Luther also wrote the anti-Jewish thesis “Von den Juden und Aren Lugen” (On the Jews and their Lies) one of the most vindictive writings about Jews that served as a basis for Hitler’s justification to eradicate the Jews! In this he says to burn their synagogues, destroy their homes, deprive them of their prayer books and Talmud, forbid travel privileges, take their cash, silver and gold, work them at hard labor….. “therefore, away with them” (last line). Wow, almost every word of terror and suppression of faith can be found in this writing by Luther. All from the “Father” of the Reformation ….and, a born-again Christian, too!
Did I tell you what Luther said about the Jews to his associate Melancthon about the 10 Commandments? How about this ….. “We must put the whole Decalogue entirely out of our sight and out of their hearts. If Moses scares you with his stupid 10 Commandments, say to him at once ‘Take yourself off to your Jews! To the gallows with Moses!” Go get the book CHRISTAIN ANTISEMITISM and gather all your Catholic hatred material but don’t forget to read what the Protestants did, also, OK? Of Zwingli, Luther writes of him as a “…. Blasphemous, in-bedeviled, through-be-deviled and over-bedeviled heart, together with a lying jaw” …. A really spirit filled guy, huh?
Maybe that is why the contemporary of Luther, Sebastian Frank, wrote of the freedom under the theology of Martin Luther “….Even under the Papacy one had more freedom than now”. It appears that Calvin had his own problems because when he declared Servantus a heretic, Calvin had him burned to death at the stake. So just for starters, Luther, Zwingli and Calvin were very spirit filled Christians full of tolerance and never suppressed anyone or any theological beliefs …. yeah, right.
Hey, since we’re talking about the Protestant history of love and tolerance why not fast-forward to the times of England of Henry VIII and beyond …. read history how Catholic priests and Catholic Christians were chased down, imprisoned, tortured until they converted/denounced Catholicism or were killed..beheaded, cut open, drawn & quartered (remember Brave Heart?) . Churches stolen or destroyed. Again, the love of Christ shines through during those Protestant time, huh?
In the early Modern period, the Roman Catholic Church struggled to maintain its role in the face of rising secular power in Europe. As a result of these struggles, there arose a hostile attitude towards the power of the Pope and the Roman Catholic clergy. This hostility is referred to as "anti-clericalism". To this was added the epochal crisis over its spiritual authority represented by the Protestant Reformation giving rise to sectarian conflict. In contemporary times anti-Catholicism has assumed various forms, including persection of Catholics as religious minorities, assaults by governments upon Catholic faithful, discrimination, and virulent attacks on clergy and laity.
How about the near recent times of Northern Ireland and the Orange Order? What about the Protestant Orange Parade that is celebrated, to this day, as its spokespeople and media-savvy supporters describe it as a pious organisation, celebrating Protestant culture and identity, but it is accused of sectarianism and anti-Catholicism. Just a simple walk in the park, but you had not be Catholic around these boys!
Oh, did I forget how tolerant the Protestant Puritans were against anything that appeared to be a witch? Did we forget that many were burned or drowned to death. Regardless, of any potential demonic belief or not, was it right? If you say yes, then we have a problem as to what standard you apply to Catholic history and then to Protestant history.
Now, please don’t sit there and mutter …Catholics did this, they also did that…blah, blah, blah. Do you know what the “Church” is? The church has two scriptural interpretations …. 1) an authoritative body to pass on unchanged Christian doctrine but 2) it is also the “body of believers”. That body of believers are the parishioners and the church leaders…all sinful men/women….at all levels. God knows this but God also knows that His Word will continue unchanged regardless of how sinful man will be.
There is no man in scripture that is without sin except Jesus Christ. So please when you try to hold Christian standards of “holiness” (ie, 1Tim3:2-13 and Titus 6-10) to Catholic priests please do the same for Protestant pastors/ministers and realize that ALL fall short of those scriptural standards. There is no Catholic priest or Protestant minister that can pass this test …they all sin and fail at some level. Even God’s APPOINTED Apostles failed, but did the truth of the Word fail??? NO!!!
“Oh but Catholic Steve, what about all those pedophile priests”? Hmmmm, let me think about that ….. of all the vocational priests there is just the smallest fraction of criminals that tarnish the Holy work of those that have kept to their vows. Still not enough to convince you? Then I suggest that you look at your own stinky pedophile Protestant past and present history. Please go to the computer and log on to Reformation.com at http://reformation.com/. Here you will find a laundry list of just some of the very recent pedophile acts against the young. If you are too scared to look then let me give you just a few of the hundreds…..
….Eddie Thomas, pastor of St. Luke Baptist Church in Ringgold, LA., is arrested and charged with indecent behavior with a juvenile, aggravated incest and pornography involving a juvenile. Police seize videotape alleged to show sex with child (the Shreveport Times, July 17, 2003) ….
….An associate pastor of a San Fernando Valley chapel was sentenced to 32 months in prison on Tuesday for failing to register as a sex offender. Ilger, a former second-grade teacher, was convicted in 1988 of molesting four students in his San Luis Obispo classroom. After being released from jail, Ilger and his family moved to Los Angeles, where he took a position with Hope Chapel of the Valley in Canoga Park. "We've lived and learned a painful lesson," the Rev. Jeff Fischer of Hope Chapel said outside court. Fischer has said he and about 30 church elders knew that Ilger had molested young girls before he was hired. (Associated Press, April 3, 2003) ….
…. TEMECULA, CA. Six years ago, Becky J.'s life revolved around Temecula Valley Baptist Church. She worshipped there, went to school there, and even worked after hours two days a week at the school to earn pocket money. That's where she met 40-year-old Pastor Kerry Clyde Martin. But at 14, Becky didn't understand the concept of street smarts, she said. She didn't know when the man befriended her what the future held. "He listened to my problems and would tell me how right I was if I had a fight with my parents," she said. "I always thought he meant it in a pastor way, or like a father." Little did Becky know that as a cleric at two previous churches -- one in Maryland and one in Orange County -- Martin had already been accused of sexually molesting at least three other girls, all 14. Little did she know the friendly, charismatic minister was taking the first steps that would culminate in his repeatedly raping the girl over the next two years. (The Californian, Dec. 8, 2002)
If you think that these problems are limited to Catholics, and now Protestants (live and learn, my friend), then please go back to the computer and log on to this Jewish sexual abuse site so you won’t feel so alone. It is (http://www.theawarenesscenter.org/clerg ... gy%20Abuse) of Rabbinical pedophile cases! Too scared to look? Let me give you just two of those cases also….
…..Case of Rabbi Jerry Brauner (Boro Park, Brooklyn, NY) (Convicted on the charges of Sexual Abuse-1st Degree and Sexual Abuse-3rd:Subject Another Person to Sex Contact Without Consent. He was sentenced to 11 years probation, with the condition he must participate in a sex offender treatment program. Brauner has been on probation since 2002 for the sexual abuse of a 15-year-old boy. On December 27, 2006, Jerry Brauner was arrested on charges of stealing a half-million-dollar home from a cancer-stricken woman, using a forged power of attorney to sell it and pocket the profits. Brauner is being held in lieu of $85,000 bail for lying about prior sex-abuse convictions when he applied for his notary's license.)….
…..Case of Rabbi Gershon Freidlin (Colonia, NJ; Pittsburgh, PA; Washington, PA) (Rabbi Gershon Freidlin pleaded guilty to one count of child endangerment , saying he had touched the youth's penis and buttocks while applying tanning lotion on the boy on July 10, 1995 Under the terms of a plea agreement, the rabbi will not be jailed for the crime, but faces up to five years probation.)
Hey, lets just look at our Baptist friends. Any Baptists out there? Did you hear the news that the law firms are now targeting the Southern Baptist Congregation since there is less left to go after with the largest Church in the world, the Catholics?! So why not go after the Southern Baptist Conference and guess what … rich pickings here, too!!!
Southern Baptist Head Responds to Clergy Sex Abuse Cases
In the wake of increasing cases of sexual immorality among clergy, including those in the Southern Baptist Convention, the SBC head says one instance of sexual abuse by a minister is too much.
"Some persons have accused Southern Baptists of ignoring the issue and hiding behind our polity," stated Page in a Monday commentary on Baptist Press. "Let me clearly state that we believe in the autonomy of the local church as a biblical mandate. We are not hiding behind anything, except the Bible."
His comments come as a group called Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) told Southern Baptists to crack down on sexual molesters among its preachers. The group claimed in February that the SBC had been "unresponsive" to letters they sent regarding sex abuse cases that recently came up……Fresno, CA. A southwest Fresno pastor has been arrested on suspicion he had a four-year sexual relationship with a teenage boy nearly 20 years ago, Fresno police confirmed Monday. Calvin Eugene Moore, 45, a pastor at King Solomon Baptist Church, was arrested for an alleged sexual relationship he had with the boy, police said. Moore remains in the Fresno County Jail in lieu of $550,000 bail. (The Fresno Bee; October 16, 2002)….etc, etc, etc.
JC, you stated this in your post …. “The embarrassing history of the RCC…..disobedient Popes but he [Steve Gregg] could've taken this much farther and brought up the Crusades and Inquisitions….THE church tortured and murdered not only their enemies, but also fellow Christians. This doesn't match, even remotely, what the scriptures describe as the kingdom of God”. I hope next time that you make a statement, as above, you do some greater and deeper research into the ugly history of the Protestant church. If you do so then maybe you will not make such an embarrassing mis-statement or elude that the Protestant church is lily white pure as “…what the scriptures describe as the kingdom of God”.
Are you sick to your stomach yet? You should be. You should be embarrassed and apologetic to every Christian out there, both Protestant and Catholic for making such generalized accusations that you allude to. Every time you look at a Protestant minister keep in mind all the cases in Reformation.com because that is just a mere slice of the pie (only several years) of Protestant sexual abuse.
Remember it is the Church collective body of believers that is sinful. The body of believers study the truth, but they never seem to accept all the truth, thus we continue to have sin. It is the Authoritative Church that God promises as ever truthful in 1 Tim 3:15. The same authoritative body that Paul and Barnabus went to in Acts 15 because the Church collective body in Antioch was rejecting the truth they were studying.
Yes, Catholic believers and priests are sinful. So are Protestant believers and pastors/ministers. So are Jewish believers and Rabbis. I have not researched Moslems or Hindus but I’d put $20 on the table to say they are too. Sorry to be so hard on you but I am sick and tired of the sinful prejudice that pervades the Protestant churches that make their parishioners think they are so almighty righteous. I think God gets nauseated at that.
For all of you other Protestant readers (Sean, TK, Chris, Homer, Paidion, etc…sorry, Emmit, you’re not Protestant) out there. Peace be with you and let us continue to clean up our own churches before we start throwing stones in a glass house. Hey, has anyone yet come up with a good reason why Protestants continue to use a hybridized Bible as their sole standard of faith?
Catholic Steve
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Hi CatholicSteve,
A couple of thoughts...
Please don't take this as a personal attack, since I'm sure you are a very nice person in "real life", but are you aware that your posts tend to come across as somewhat shrill, arrogant and combative? I've seen you lament in other posts that people won't engage you in dialog. Perhaps you would enjoy more interaction if you would turn down the volume, both in terms of vitriol and quantity.
I was going to engage in a dialog with you regarding the "cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12 but by the time I had prepared my post, you had appended multiple lengthy posts back to back. I had to regretfully make the decision that I just didn't have the time available to me to enter into a refutation of such a lengthy tome. So I suppose you silenced dissent to your opinion by sheer brute force.
In this most recent post, I understand your main point to be that evil has been perpetrated by Protestants as well as Catholics. Well, duh!
I know there are some participants on this forum (myself included) who have deep misgivings about any form of Christianity that is overly hierarchical and control-oriented. It seems to me that when the Church (however you define it) gets in bed with temporal power, the result is inevitably an impotent and oppressive form of Christianity that bears little resemblance to Jesus.
My desire is to be a follower of Jesus. Not a Catholic or Protestant. I have found affinity in the theology and praxis of the Anabaptists and Quakers primarily because they look more to me like the counter-cultural community of disciples that Jesus initiated. By the same token though, I minister alongside Catholics and various forms of Protestants. We are able to do so because we keep our focus on Jesus and doing the work of Jesus.
In the light of all of this Protestant vs. Catholic discussion, I can't help but think of 1 Corinthians 3:
A couple of thoughts...
Please don't take this as a personal attack, since I'm sure you are a very nice person in "real life", but are you aware that your posts tend to come across as somewhat shrill, arrogant and combative? I've seen you lament in other posts that people won't engage you in dialog. Perhaps you would enjoy more interaction if you would turn down the volume, both in terms of vitriol and quantity.
I was going to engage in a dialog with you regarding the "cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12 but by the time I had prepared my post, you had appended multiple lengthy posts back to back. I had to regretfully make the decision that I just didn't have the time available to me to enter into a refutation of such a lengthy tome. So I suppose you silenced dissent to your opinion by sheer brute force.
In this most recent post, I understand your main point to be that evil has been perpetrated by Protestants as well as Catholics. Well, duh!

I know there are some participants on this forum (myself included) who have deep misgivings about any form of Christianity that is overly hierarchical and control-oriented. It seems to me that when the Church (however you define it) gets in bed with temporal power, the result is inevitably an impotent and oppressive form of Christianity that bears little resemblance to Jesus.
My desire is to be a follower of Jesus. Not a Catholic or Protestant. I have found affinity in the theology and praxis of the Anabaptists and Quakers primarily because they look more to me like the counter-cultural community of disciples that Jesus initiated. By the same token though, I minister alongside Catholics and various forms of Protestants. We are able to do so because we keep our focus on Jesus and doing the work of Jesus.
In the light of all of this Protestant vs. Catholic discussion, I can't help but think of 1 Corinthians 3:
God help us all to be less Catholic/Protestant/Anabaptist/Eastern Orthodox/Quaker and be more Christ-like!Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, This work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Well said brother Danny! Amen.God help us all to be less Catholic/Protestant/Anabaptist/Eastern Orthodox/Quaker and be more Christ-like!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Derek
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Good post Danny!
You said:
I do not consider myself a Protestant, whatever that is, just a Christian. My impression is that the biggest "protester" here, by far, is CatholicSteve.
You said:
Amen!My desire is to be a follower of Jesus. Not a Catholic or Protestant.
I do not consider myself a Protestant, whatever that is, just a Christian. My impression is that the biggest "protester" here, by far, is CatholicSteve.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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A Berean
speechless
Dear Mort,,
…“somewhat shrill, arrogant and combative” ?? Somewhat? Well, what are we, blind? Of course my posts are shrill, arrogant and combative. Can you blame me? Why, you ask? Well, nearly everyone on this forum was all-over-the-board with their shotgun questions forcing me to do likewise.
Any of you know of USMC LT General “Chesty” Puller? He was in charge of the Marines in Korea at the Chosin Reservoir. They ended up surrounded by the Chinese and were advancing towards the rear in one of the more successful retreats know. One of his famous quotes was “"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things."…he is parapharsed as saying “now any direction we shoot we’re shooting at the Chinese”. Well, I sort of feel like that. I am surrounded by Protestants and they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink at me, so almost anything I throw back at them is going to strike a nerve. I am hardly of the caliber of Chesty but I do like the analogy.
The problem is that no one appears to really answer anything. I hear a lot of “hurt” feelings like I am too argumentative as if I need to tone down my language when often times it starts from the other side first. I don’t seem to be complianing rather I shovel it right back in your laps. I read the posts and rather than actually objectively answering all I hear ….
Mort : “…. a follower of Jesus. Not a Catholic or Protestant” You are beginning to sound like Emmit, a sort of quasi-Christian. Everyone got mad at me throwing out all sorts of threads (you included), so I went right back to a very objective, hard to argue, major discrepancy in the Hebrew text (denying Mary as Virgin) but no one seems to really know what to say, because the proof is right there.
You can answer the Hebrews “cloud” anytime, Mort. Don’t get all flipped out because there are too many threads/subjects. Just say “Focus, Catholic Steve, now lets talk about that cloud again”, but you have yet to do so.
You state “….So I suppose you silenced dissent to your opinion by sheer brute force….In this most recent post, I understand your main point to be that evil has been perpetrated by Protestants as well as Catholics. Well, duh!”
Brute force? No, not really, but brute truth, yes. I am sure Paul and Barnabus at Antioch did sugar-coat the heated debate and as long as we’re not pulling an “Imus”, I am sure we can have just as heated a debate. You quote a lot of scripture, so go back and read some of the sections where the apostles and disciples had the snot beat out of them or at least threatened, for a little motivation. Evil in the Protestant ranks, well duh…what does that mean? You acknowledge the problem is as perswassive as in the Catholic ranks? Go to the web site, my friend, it is in every generic “Christian” church too. I brought it up because JC appeared to be quite ignorant of this fact.
Answer my hybridized bible thread or go back to the Hebrew’s “cloud” discussion.
TK : Do you have anything else to say besides “Amen to that”? You are one that makes these generalized, shotgun statements and jumps into a hole poking his head up and saying “Right on, brother, praise Jesus” and drops right back down when discussion gets heated.
You said that you went to the Scott Hahn site and read his discussion on the Mass found in Scripture. You did? If so, what did he say about the lamb’s Supper and the Mass? You see, I doubt you really read anything for any period of time. At least I come out with some zeal in my discussion with points to back up my position. Your credibility wanes because of a lack to discuss or even take up my free offer. I leave the offer open but you simply appear to wait for someone to say something and then come out saying “Amen to that”.
Derek: Welcome. I have not had the opportunity to say hello. I hope to hear more from you in the future other than a TK comment like “Well said brother Danny! Amen.” A lot was said in my thread(s) so I am sure there are lots of opportunity to pick a position and discuss it.
Homer: Hello again. You too are a bit brief with “Good post Danny!”. Last time I heard from you ran out from the bushes and smacked me with [Call no man Father] and then jumped back in the bushes. I write back why we call priests father and challenge you in kind and I never hear from you. Did you jump into the same hole as TK and discuss what a mean guy I am…. “Boy, that Catholic Steve sure is a zealot character, hardly Christian, huh?”
I will agree with you on this. I am a “ protester”, but certainly not Protestant. I will stand shoulder to shoulder with the discussion techniques of the “protesters” Paul and Barnabus any day of the week. What apostle/disciple would you liken to? You seem like a “Zacchaeus”, a nice man just not ready to commit everything.
Can you tell me why you have Sunday School “teachers” when scripture says that is a no-no? Or maybe you can tell me why Paul can call himself a “father” to us all and not violate the scriptural tenants you throw at Catholic priests? Was that said nicely enough for you now?
JC: My post was mainly meant for you because you said some very ugly things about Catholics while forgetting the very ugly and current history of the Protestants. Your friends here are interesting, but wow have you listened to the tenor of the discussion?
Everyone was pretty much into a Protestant stance because anything not Catholic is basically, Protestant, but that has changed. Well, Emmit was the first to deny that label. Then when I start to bring up all these historical facts of the Protestants Bible, and such, then everyone is bailing off the Protestant ship! Read their posts….Mort, TK, Homer, Derek are all “Christian” (say that while pouring sugar on it).
Does anyone believe in anything any more? As you run from your Protestant history you strip every vestige of legitimacy from your “Christian” mettle. You are your history. That is kind of sad. I feel bad that I sound so berating but Arnold Schwarzenegger had a name for it “just a bunch of girly men”. You have no history. You have no collective stance/position. You will not stand by your hybridized Bible, which unfortunately is Protestant, but you do not stand by that name so what are you? “Generic Cafeteria Christians” that simply pick & chose what is convenient to believe?
Do you stand for Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, no Christian Church hierarchy, no sacraments and a Bible with 39 OT books and 27 NT books? Well, I assume you do and if that is correct then, guess what? You are Protestant! Come on stand up, be a man, none of this girly men hiding in holes. Jesus’ Christian movement would have come to screeching halt with disciples like this. When you all look in the mirror tonight brushing your teeth, try to see if there is a man willing to stand up for his beliefs and his history or someone that will simply continue to deflect the subject by simply saying “Amen brother, well said”.
You all can go on complaining “Catholic Steve is just too hard, too un-Christian, for us to listen to or respond”. That is fine with me if you never discuss the post topics and challenges I have put before you. I will then just try to continue to discuss topics like Josephus and Luther next …. King pins in the Protestant movement. But since you all are not Protestant then you need not worry because they are not part of your history. Can you tell I am slightly perturbed/irritated with your laxity to defend your Christian faith?
You appear to run from any discussion of historical truth, as if it did not exist, therefore you “Christians” are not a party to it. It reminds me of the Nazi’s when they invaded many of the European countries during WWII. They came in and demanded everyone give up the Jews and everyone around said nothing because they were not a Jew. Then the Nazi’s came back demanding everyone give up the politicians and said nothing because they were not politicians. This continued with the teachers, the doctors until only Christians were left. When cries for help went out from these Christians “Help me, help me, they are taking me to the concentration camps”…. But, no one heard anything because no one was left. No one stood up and took a stand. Sad.
Emmet, even though you are not Protestant, my compliments to your defense. At least you stand up. I would share a fighting hole with you any day of the week and we’d have some pretty spirited conversations!
Peace out, Catholic Steve
…“somewhat shrill, arrogant and combative” ?? Somewhat? Well, what are we, blind? Of course my posts are shrill, arrogant and combative. Can you blame me? Why, you ask? Well, nearly everyone on this forum was all-over-the-board with their shotgun questions forcing me to do likewise.
Any of you know of USMC LT General “Chesty” Puller? He was in charge of the Marines in Korea at the Chosin Reservoir. They ended up surrounded by the Chinese and were advancing towards the rear in one of the more successful retreats know. One of his famous quotes was “"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things."…he is parapharsed as saying “now any direction we shoot we’re shooting at the Chinese”. Well, I sort of feel like that. I am surrounded by Protestants and they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink at me, so almost anything I throw back at them is going to strike a nerve. I am hardly of the caliber of Chesty but I do like the analogy.
The problem is that no one appears to really answer anything. I hear a lot of “hurt” feelings like I am too argumentative as if I need to tone down my language when often times it starts from the other side first. I don’t seem to be complianing rather I shovel it right back in your laps. I read the posts and rather than actually objectively answering all I hear ….
Mort : “…. a follower of Jesus. Not a Catholic or Protestant” You are beginning to sound like Emmit, a sort of quasi-Christian. Everyone got mad at me throwing out all sorts of threads (you included), so I went right back to a very objective, hard to argue, major discrepancy in the Hebrew text (denying Mary as Virgin) but no one seems to really know what to say, because the proof is right there.
You can answer the Hebrews “cloud” anytime, Mort. Don’t get all flipped out because there are too many threads/subjects. Just say “Focus, Catholic Steve, now lets talk about that cloud again”, but you have yet to do so.
You state “….So I suppose you silenced dissent to your opinion by sheer brute force….In this most recent post, I understand your main point to be that evil has been perpetrated by Protestants as well as Catholics. Well, duh!”
Brute force? No, not really, but brute truth, yes. I am sure Paul and Barnabus at Antioch did sugar-coat the heated debate and as long as we’re not pulling an “Imus”, I am sure we can have just as heated a debate. You quote a lot of scripture, so go back and read some of the sections where the apostles and disciples had the snot beat out of them or at least threatened, for a little motivation. Evil in the Protestant ranks, well duh…what does that mean? You acknowledge the problem is as perswassive as in the Catholic ranks? Go to the web site, my friend, it is in every generic “Christian” church too. I brought it up because JC appeared to be quite ignorant of this fact.
Answer my hybridized bible thread or go back to the Hebrew’s “cloud” discussion.
TK : Do you have anything else to say besides “Amen to that”? You are one that makes these generalized, shotgun statements and jumps into a hole poking his head up and saying “Right on, brother, praise Jesus” and drops right back down when discussion gets heated.
You said that you went to the Scott Hahn site and read his discussion on the Mass found in Scripture. You did? If so, what did he say about the lamb’s Supper and the Mass? You see, I doubt you really read anything for any period of time. At least I come out with some zeal in my discussion with points to back up my position. Your credibility wanes because of a lack to discuss or even take up my free offer. I leave the offer open but you simply appear to wait for someone to say something and then come out saying “Amen to that”.
Derek: Welcome. I have not had the opportunity to say hello. I hope to hear more from you in the future other than a TK comment like “Well said brother Danny! Amen.” A lot was said in my thread(s) so I am sure there are lots of opportunity to pick a position and discuss it.
Homer: Hello again. You too are a bit brief with “Good post Danny!”. Last time I heard from you ran out from the bushes and smacked me with [Call no man Father] and then jumped back in the bushes. I write back why we call priests father and challenge you in kind and I never hear from you. Did you jump into the same hole as TK and discuss what a mean guy I am…. “Boy, that Catholic Steve sure is a zealot character, hardly Christian, huh?”
I will agree with you on this. I am a “ protester”, but certainly not Protestant. I will stand shoulder to shoulder with the discussion techniques of the “protesters” Paul and Barnabus any day of the week. What apostle/disciple would you liken to? You seem like a “Zacchaeus”, a nice man just not ready to commit everything.
Can you tell me why you have Sunday School “teachers” when scripture says that is a no-no? Or maybe you can tell me why Paul can call himself a “father” to us all and not violate the scriptural tenants you throw at Catholic priests? Was that said nicely enough for you now?
JC: My post was mainly meant for you because you said some very ugly things about Catholics while forgetting the very ugly and current history of the Protestants. Your friends here are interesting, but wow have you listened to the tenor of the discussion?
Everyone was pretty much into a Protestant stance because anything not Catholic is basically, Protestant, but that has changed. Well, Emmit was the first to deny that label. Then when I start to bring up all these historical facts of the Protestants Bible, and such, then everyone is bailing off the Protestant ship! Read their posts….Mort, TK, Homer, Derek are all “Christian” (say that while pouring sugar on it).
Does anyone believe in anything any more? As you run from your Protestant history you strip every vestige of legitimacy from your “Christian” mettle. You are your history. That is kind of sad. I feel bad that I sound so berating but Arnold Schwarzenegger had a name for it “just a bunch of girly men”. You have no history. You have no collective stance/position. You will not stand by your hybridized Bible, which unfortunately is Protestant, but you do not stand by that name so what are you? “Generic Cafeteria Christians” that simply pick & chose what is convenient to believe?
Do you stand for Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, no Christian Church hierarchy, no sacraments and a Bible with 39 OT books and 27 NT books? Well, I assume you do and if that is correct then, guess what? You are Protestant! Come on stand up, be a man, none of this girly men hiding in holes. Jesus’ Christian movement would have come to screeching halt with disciples like this. When you all look in the mirror tonight brushing your teeth, try to see if there is a man willing to stand up for his beliefs and his history or someone that will simply continue to deflect the subject by simply saying “Amen brother, well said”.
You all can go on complaining “Catholic Steve is just too hard, too un-Christian, for us to listen to or respond”. That is fine with me if you never discuss the post topics and challenges I have put before you. I will then just try to continue to discuss topics like Josephus and Luther next …. King pins in the Protestant movement. But since you all are not Protestant then you need not worry because they are not part of your history. Can you tell I am slightly perturbed/irritated with your laxity to defend your Christian faith?
You appear to run from any discussion of historical truth, as if it did not exist, therefore you “Christians” are not a party to it. It reminds me of the Nazi’s when they invaded many of the European countries during WWII. They came in and demanded everyone give up the Jews and everyone around said nothing because they were not a Jew. Then the Nazi’s came back demanding everyone give up the politicians and said nothing because they were not politicians. This continued with the teachers, the doctors until only Christians were left. When cries for help went out from these Christians “Help me, help me, they are taking me to the concentration camps”…. But, no one heard anything because no one was left. No one stood up and took a stand. Sad.
Emmet, even though you are not Protestant, my compliments to your defense. At least you stand up. I would share a fighting hole with you any day of the week and we’d have some pretty spirited conversations!
Peace out, Catholic Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
- _Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:28 am
- Location: Seattle, WA
Wow. I'm amazed (and not in a good way). You sound like a very angry man.
Am I correct in understanding that your goal is to promote Catholicism?
Am I correct in understanding that your goal is to promote Catholicism?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Well said brother Danny! Amen. Just kidding Steve. 

Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Derek
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7
Your response to my question was not to the point. Jesus explicitly forbade calling any man "father". In what sense did He mean this? Can you tell us? Certainly not in respect to our parent. Not in respect to a person who is known as the "father" to a form of music, &c, or even, as in Paul's case, a person who brought others to Christ.Homer: Hello again. You too are a bit brief with “Good post Danny!”. Last time I heard from you ran out from the bushes and smacked me with [Call no man Father] and then jumped back in the bushes. I write back why we call priests father and challenge you in kind and I never hear from you. Did you jump into the same hole as TK and discuss what a mean guy I am…. “Boy, that Catholic Steve sure is a zealot character, hardly Christian, huh?”
Could Jesus had in mind people who claim a place for themselves between other Christians and our Father in heaven? People who pretentiously claim to have the right to forgive sins? What does it mean to you that the veil of the Temple was torn apart when Jesus was crucified? Did He not make a way for each of us to "go boldly to the throne of grace" (Hebrews 5:15-16) without needing to kowtow to mere men? You can have your "priest", I'll take Jesus as mine. I think I have rather the better end of the deal.
When Jesus was accused of blasphemy in Mark 2 because He forgave a man's sins, did He disagree with their statement that only God can forgive sins? By His tacit acknowledgement that their statement was true, He in effect said He was the Son of God. If you Catholic folks can actually forgive sins, you undermine Jesus' claim to be God.
Let no one be mistaken about this. The Catholic church states that what the priest does is no the mere ministry of pronouncing and declaring that the sins of the person confessing are remitted, but that the sacramental absolution of the priest is a judicial act.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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A Berean
CS-
Actually- searched all over Scott Hahn’s site (blogs, etc) but was unable to locate the article you mentioned regarding the Mass/supper of the lamb. Why don’t you link to it so that I can read it? I did follow some of the links on his site to other catholic apologetics sites and spent quite a bit of time reading there.
I have also been watching some EWTN, all because of you. The other night I watched Sister Angelica and her fellow nuns recite the rosary for half hour, then I got tired of it an changed the channel. I also watched a priest who has a regular show I think—he was funny and had some good things to say. I can’t remember his name- Father somebody—last name starts with a “C.”
To be very honest, I cannot engage you on the topic of the history of the scriptures because I know nothing about the topic, to speak of, and have no interest in tackling such a formidable topic now. I realize that this could be due to some laziness on my part. But I can spend my time studying something that bores me to tears, or I can read things that hopefully will help me grow as a disciple. So now I am reading the Memoirs of Charles Finney and We Travel an Appointed Way by AW Tozer. Recently I read Irresistible Revolution by Shane Claiborne and Megashift by Jim Rutz (which you, and likely my pastor, would probably find heretical).
I have read the apocryphal books in the past, and read the “shepherd of hermes” not long ago. I found nothing overly objectionable in them. In another post you said that the doctrine of purgatory can be shown from the apocryphal books. Great. If purgatory is a real place, oh well. C.S. Lewis believed in purgatory, and I agree with him on tons of things. If the books of the Bible you mentioned “were missed” by us protestants, I am sure Jesus will give us a good talking to when we get to heaven. Then we will move on to praising his holy name.
I think most of us here are “too far gone” to be lured into RC. Therefore, discussions regarding all the differences among us will probably me much less edifying than trying to figure out if there is any common ground.
TK
Actually- searched all over Scott Hahn’s site (blogs, etc) but was unable to locate the article you mentioned regarding the Mass/supper of the lamb. Why don’t you link to it so that I can read it? I did follow some of the links on his site to other catholic apologetics sites and spent quite a bit of time reading there.
I have also been watching some EWTN, all because of you. The other night I watched Sister Angelica and her fellow nuns recite the rosary for half hour, then I got tired of it an changed the channel. I also watched a priest who has a regular show I think—he was funny and had some good things to say. I can’t remember his name- Father somebody—last name starts with a “C.”
To be very honest, I cannot engage you on the topic of the history of the scriptures because I know nothing about the topic, to speak of, and have no interest in tackling such a formidable topic now. I realize that this could be due to some laziness on my part. But I can spend my time studying something that bores me to tears, or I can read things that hopefully will help me grow as a disciple. So now I am reading the Memoirs of Charles Finney and We Travel an Appointed Way by AW Tozer. Recently I read Irresistible Revolution by Shane Claiborne and Megashift by Jim Rutz (which you, and likely my pastor, would probably find heretical).
I have read the apocryphal books in the past, and read the “shepherd of hermes” not long ago. I found nothing overly objectionable in them. In another post you said that the doctrine of purgatory can be shown from the apocryphal books. Great. If purgatory is a real place, oh well. C.S. Lewis believed in purgatory, and I agree with him on tons of things. If the books of the Bible you mentioned “were missed” by us protestants, I am sure Jesus will give us a good talking to when we get to heaven. Then we will move on to praising his holy name.
I think most of us here are “too far gone” to be lured into RC. Therefore, discussions regarding all the differences among us will probably me much less edifying than trying to figure out if there is any common ground.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)