Did Jesus believe in Total Depravity?

Post by **_Derek** » Tue May 08, 2007 6:43 pm

This has been asked on this forum before, but I am curious how the Calvinists who have (thankfully!) been around would answer it?

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why did Jesus need to hide his teaching in parables, so that these people, to whom it had not been "given to know the mystery of the kingdom", would not "understand", "be converted" and "their sins forgiven"?

If they were totally depraved, meaning they could not have understood the things of God anyway, why the need for parables?

Jesus seems to think that they would have at least possibly understood, and been converted.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:13 pm

If they were totally depraved, meaning they could not have understood the things of God anyway, why the need for parables?

As a former Calvinist, I would have said:

He Himself gave the reason for the parables, so that they wouldn't understand. This was the means He used to maintain their non-repentance.

Believing in Calvinism doesn't imply that God does not use means to ensure that the elect stay on the path, and that the non-elect don't get on it.

Post by **_Derek** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:17 pm

Believing in Calvinism doesn't imply that God does not use means to ensure that the elect stay on the path, and that the non-elect don't get on it.

Why would He need to ensure that the non-elect don't get on it? There's no danger in that, apart from His election, even if He preached His message clearly to them! Power point and all!

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:26 pm

You're right, Derek.

When I was a Calvinist, I dealt with Calvinism's inherent contradictions by simply ignoring them.

Post by **_David** » Tue May 08, 2007 7:27 pm

Derek,

I have to go take care of a few things, and I will try to double back and give a more thorough answer. However, I wanted to insert this one point: as a Calvinist (and I realize that you and Paidion will not agree to these ideas), I do not believe that God must be careful to prevent an accidental conversion from taking place. God would not have to try at all, according to my understanding, to keep people out of the kingdom, since by their very nature, they would not want this, or at least not on His terms and conditions. I realize many people do want peace, want forgiveness, and want to go to heaven, but not everybody wants to surrender their lives to Jesus and take up their cross and follow Him. All of us want a paycheck, but not all of us want a job.

I will try to come back tonight and interrupt your conversation some more! I just want to clarify that when a Calvinist says "No one who wants to enter in will be left out", though his conception of how this happens may be incorrect, he is not double minded, since according to this view God draws people by granting them faith and repentance to realize their need for a Saviour and to seek Him. Those who are not drawn in this manner may want the benefits of sonship, but they do not want to be subject to the Son, and not because God has to make them averse to this, but because as I understand it by nature they cannot be subject to the law of God.

To summarize:

Lack of intervention - no one comes. By intervention - people come.

Post by **_Derek** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:21 pm

I will try to come back tonight and interrupt your conversation some more!

Please do! It's the Calvinist interpretation of this passage that I'm interested in.

Particularly how this statement...

"I do not believe that God must be careful to prevent an accidental conversion from taking place. God would not have to try at all, according to my understanding, to keep people out of the kingdom, since by their very nature, they would not want this, or at least not on His terms and conditions."

...comports with the passage in question.

God bless, Hope you feel better today!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:32 pm

Derek, if Jesus believed in total depravity why would he say "bring the little children unto me for such as these is the kingdom of Heaven."

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:24 pm

I would like to know from the Arminian point of view why Jesus here is not wanting them all to be saved and not willing than any should perish!
That's what I want to know...

These verses completely prove the Calvinist position.
Total depravity is not the context of these passages.

What is then?

The freedom of God in deciding who becomes the benefactors of God's wisdom and mystery of salvation.
The text is addressing an Old Test prophecy and concerns God's ancient choice of family, where others are given a blindness and hardness on top of their already sinful nature.

It is addressing the hardening of the Jews, in preparation for the opening of the gospel to the Gentiles.

Jesus is saying that these peoples hearts are already closed, the point of the parables is to give the mysteries of the Kingdom to these disciples and believers by extension.

It's not meant to be read as if they being depraved already, have need to be further blinded. It is as if Jesus is saying that they are not only blind, but these parables will confound them even further in their blindness but these parables will have meaning to you disciples.

see Mar 4:34 But he did not speak to them without a parable. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.

Post by **_Derek** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:27 pm

I would like to know from the Arminian point of view why Jesus here is not wanting them all to be saved and not willing than any should perish!
That's what I want to know...

As a judgement.

These verses completely prove the Calvinist position.
Total depravity is not the context of these passages.

What is then?

The freedom of God in deciding who becomes the benefactors of God's wisdom and mystery of salvation.
The text is addressing an Old Test prophecy and concerns God's ancient choice of family, where others are given a blindness and hardness on top of their already sinful nature.

It is addressing the hardening of the Jews, in preparation for the opening of the gospel to the Gentiles.

Jesus is saying that these peoples hearts are already closed, the point of the parables is to give the mysteries of the Kingdom to these disciples and believers by extension.

I agree with everything you have said here, aside from the fact that you think that it proves Calvinism. This is how I would explain it, and it fits perfectly well within my view, why not?

Do think that Arminians don't believe God can harden the heart of an individual? Of course He can. He's God!

It's not meant to be read as if they being depraved already, have need to be further blinded. It is as if Jesus is saying that they are not only blind, but these parables will confound them even further in their blindness but these parables will have meaning to you disciples.

see Mar 4:34 But he did not speak to them without a parable. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.

It would appear that they did need to be further hardened brother. Jesus gave a reason why He hid His teaching in parables. One, was to fulfill that prophecy, this cannot be denied, because that is what He said.

Jesus did not say, "to further blind them", but He said lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. He did this "so that" they would not believe. According to Total Depravity this would have been unnecessary. He could have presented His teaching clearly and people would have went on rejecting Him. But He clearly says that He hid the message to keep something from happening, namely repentence, belief, salvation. The fact that He did it to keep this from happening, shows that it could have happened.

These verses show plainly that these Jews could have believed, repented, and been saved if He had not hid the message. That's what the text says.

Of course I believe that God wants none to perish, that does not mean that it is not His right to harden their hearts as a judgement. He can judge whomever He wants.

Post by **_Sean** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:45 pm

tartanarmy wrote:I would like to know from the Arminian point of view why Jesus here is not wanting them all to be saved and not willing than any should perish!
That's what I want to know...

Because He came to His own and His own did not receive Him. They rejected the call of John the Baptist and ignored the miracles Jesus performed proving He was the Messiah. Non-Calvinist believe that repentance is a window of opportunity, don't take it lightly or it might pass you by. "If today you hear His voice, do not harden your heart". It does not mean that everyone must get equal opportunity.

Those whom Jesus withheld the secrets of the kingdom were people who already rejected God. Those whom Jesus received were those whom already belonged to God. In other words they were already the faithful remnant.

tartanarmy wrote: These verses completely prove the Calvinist position.
Total depravity is not the context of these passages.

What is then?

The freedom of God in deciding who becomes the benefactors of God's wisdom and mystery of salvation.
The text is addressing an Old Test prophecy and concerns God's ancient choice of family, where others are given a blindness and hardness on top of their already sinful nature.

It is addressing the hardening of the Jews, in preparation for the opening of the gospel to the Gentiles.

Jesus is saying that these peoples hearts are already closed, the point of the parables is to give the mysteries of the Kingdom to these disciples and believers by extension.

It's not meant to be read as if they being depraved already, have need to be further blinded. It is as if Jesus is saying that they are not only blind, but these parables will confound them even further in their blindness but these parables will have meaning to you disciples.

see Mar 4:34 But he did not speak to them without a parable. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.

I don't think you answered the question. Why would God hide something from people who are totally depraved? The passage answers why, If Jesus didn't hide it from them, they could turn and be forgiven.

Not to mention that the very things Jesus kept from them were later written down and are now told to everyone. Even Jesus said to repeat His words but not until after His resurrection. There were a certain generation that had John the Baptist and the Miracles of Jesus as a sign, that's more than most people get. Those that rejected these weren't getting the secrets to the kingdom, it seems to me.

Non-Calvinist don't believe that God must give equal opportunity of salvation to everyone. Paul didn't get the same opportunity as most others for sure. He got a direct visitation from Christ!