Proof Regeneration Precedes Faith

[Guest]

I quoted that passage already.
Homer believes that we can obey that passage and become perfect. Well, if he is consistent with his answer given that is.

Mark

[Guest]

I don't think that Jesus is speaking of moral perfection in Matt 5, but rather complete or perfect mercy, as the paralell in Luke (the same speech) shows:

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

See also: Matt. 19:21; 1 Cor. 2:6; Col. 1:28.

How strange it would be, in my opinion, if the whole sermon on the mount, were not teachings to live by, but rather something to show us some unatainable standard.

[Guest]

I quoted that passage already.
Homer believes that we can obey that passage and become perfect. Well, if he is consistent with his answer given that is.

Mark

So what did Paul mean when He said:

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


Not only that, it begs the question, if fallen man can do nothing but sin, they why is it that regenerated man, whose nature is changed and he has the Holy Spirit inside him causing him to do Gods' will, why is it that such a man can't stop sinning? Does the Holy Spirit and a regenerated heart not enough to overcome sin? Is sin more powerful? Or is it at least possible that another will is involved, like mans'?

It seems that Paul's constant exhortations show that man's will is involved, both before and after conversion.

[Guest]

First of all, I see no point in immediately jumping ahead to another context. Seems to be just looking for a passage that can be used against the plain context of what I cited, but be that as it may.

Is it not valid to use scripture to interpret scripture? Especially when the same metaphor is being used?

Why are you assuming that man has the ability to bring himself back from being dean in sin? Think about that. Is it in the text?

First, this is a misunderstanding of what the non-Calvinist believes. The non-Calvinist believes that God regenerates man (brings him back from the dead), not that man does this. This would be like saying that in Romans 4 Abraham justified himself by his own works. The debate is weather God does this after or before faith. This text does not speak to this so it benefits no one.

Also, the metaphor of being dead is not literal. In this case of "dead in trespasses and sin". This can easily mean that man is "as good as dead" being a sinner. As in, "the wages of sin is death". Nothing man can do will pay his sin debt. God, in Christ has paid the debt.

Paul knows that man does not have the ability to do this.
Command does not imply ability. If it did, then we could all keep the commandments, or we could be perfect even as God Himself is perfect.

Homer already commented on this, I would just like to add that even before the Holy Spirit was poured out, there were those who were said to keep the commandments of God.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Back to Ephesians 2:5,
God makes us alive. Now we know this is referring to Spiritually alive. The text says that while we were “dead”, meaning “not alive spiritually” or as he himself states elsewhere, “Natural man, In the flesh” etc.
God takes the initiative and “while” we are yet dead, He “makes” us alive.
That is monergism.

Yes God makes us alive, we are made Spiritually alive by the Spirit. But this doesn't happen until we repent and believe (Acts 2:38).

Jesus even mentioned receiving the Holy Spirit this way:
Luke 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

So did Jesus say we get the "gift" before or after we "ask"?

If being converted was a synergistic thing, then we would have room to take some credit in our salvation. We did something that others did not do.
We can boast in synergism, but the Apostle says, “lest any man should boast”

Not according to Paul in Romans 4. I've already commented on this in another thread but no one commented. Paul says:

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

All I can say is that it seems Paul disagrees with your observation. Faith is something Abraham "did" but it was not considered a "work" which are "not counted as Grace but debt". Faith is something "done" by man but not considered a "work" in Gods' eyes.

Elsewhere he says, 1Co 4:7 For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

Man is made in the image of God, and man knows "good and evil". These are things man has "received" are they not?

Paul says:

6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?

Is Paul not talking to the Corinthians? Why would one be puffed up against another over having faith or not? The Corinthians who were warned not to be puffed up against one another were already believers. So why use this verse to divide a believer from a non-believer. Is that the context of this passage?

There is no boasting in Monergism Homer, so I would ask you.

Did you by an act of your fallen, natural man will, (which cannot please God and is not able to please Him) reach out in order to take salvation, or did God, by an act of sheer grace and mercy, draw you to Himself, and then you acted in faith and repentance because you could do nothing else, being amazed by His love for you?

Mark

Your misconstruing the non-Calvinist position giving these two choices. One we do not hold and one you hold. Actually my position is much like your second option, except that I could do something else, as the scriptures affirm some do.

[Guest]

Jug, I believe if christ said to be perfect, that is what he expects, and he is not an Egyptian taskmaster, requiring us to build bricks without straw. If we walk in love, we are perfect. Love fulfills the law. Sometimes its so simple, its hard! We miss it. If we walk in the Spirit, we WILL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh is what Paul said, so one day at a time, one hour at a time, one minute at a time with our Lord is all we need to do.

[Guest]

I don't think that Jesus is speaking of moral perfection in Matt 5, but rather complete or perfect mercy, as the paralell in Luke (the same speech) shows:

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

See also: Matt. 19:21; 1 Cor. 2:6; Col. 1:28.

Actually, I agree with you. The verse popped into my head, and I posted...I didn't fully consider it first.

Contextually, Jesus was talking about having a more mature love than simply loving those who love you. Even more clearly, the word "perfect" does not quite have our modern definition of "without flaw, ideal". It's closer to "complete, mature". (A comment I'd read online made me think the Greek was different.)

So, I don't think this verse quite makes the point I wanted it to.

How strange it would be, in my opinion, if the whole sermon on the mount, were not teachings to live by, but rather something to show us some unatainable standard.

This comment, however, made me blink a couple times and go, "Eh?"

I don't understand a mindset that would view perfect, complete righteousness and goodness as being any less a thing to strive for and seek to live by--just because I don't expect ever to reach it. I don't believe I've ever fulfilled the greatest commandment--Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength and mind--for even one second, and I don't expect ever to get to a point where I'm consistently living that out. That doesn't mean I strive any less. I will also never achieve perfect wisdom, perfect understanding of the Scripture, perfect theology--but I can get closer and closer through prayerful, humble study. Our reach should exceed our grasp.

I don't know, perhaps you agree with that completely, and we just weren't on the same page about how I was applying the verse.

At any rate, the Law convicts us of our sin. It shows us our need for a savior. As David said, it is based in God's character, not in our ability to achieve.

[Guest]

From the Westminster Confession of Faith, on the free-will of man:

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

Please inform me if I misunderstand Calvinist doctrine but this statement appears to be the basis of the idea that regeneration necessarily precedes faith. I will not argue with the idea that man can convert himself apart from the work of God in the heart , but to say that man can not will any spiritual good nor prepare himself in any way to become a Christian would seem obviously false.

Let us consider Nicodemus in John 3. Nicodemus was a "ruler" of the Jews, a Pharisee. His position was either as a member of the Sanhedren or head of a synagogue. He is seeking Jesus out as a teacher, obviously regarding spiritual things. He believed Jesus had been sent from God. He was a religious person. For all we know, he was as Godly a man as Paul or Cornelius before they were converted. Where is the proof he was not? Yet Jesus informed him he must be born again, or regenerated. How was this "dead man" seeking after, and active in, spiritual things, things of the true God of Israel?

It has been asserted that the Old Testament saints were regenerated prior to their faith but there is no evidence this was so, any more than for Nicodemus.

[Guest]

He has breathed life into us where there was none previously, and the result of this new life is faith, for faith too is “the gift of God” (Eph 2:8 ).

John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, `Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

It is more likely that the gift of God Ephesians 2:8 speaks of is not faith but eternal life, salvation.

[Guest]

Hi Soaring Eagle,

Thanks for posting those verses together. As I read them together like that, it makes me consider something I never considered in those verses. It almost appears to me that the "gift of God" may not be either faith nor eternal life, but maybe it's Jesus Himself (especially the John 4 verse). After all, God "gave" His one and only Son did He not? Perhaps Jesus is to be seen as the "gift of God".

I could very well be off my rocker here but it is something to at least consider.

Lord bless.

[Guest]

John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, `Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


Interesting Chris because all the phrases could also mean Christ. "living water", "eternal life", and the faith sounds like the faith of Christ, maybe.
He is the life, the water and by faith in Him perhaps we are credited with His faith.