Worshipping the MAN Christ Jesus?

[Guest]

Ely-

its not so much showing where the bible specifically states that "you must believe in the trinity" or "you must believe in the deity of Christ" to be saved- obviously it doesnt say that or we wouldnt be having this discussion.

But you have to believe Jesus. You will likely state that Jesus never claimed deity for himself; i would simply disagree. It is such an accepted fact that it is a basic cornerstone of the Christian faith.

Greg Koukl says this:

f you reject such a thing, I don't see how you can then say I have put my faith in Jesus because the Jesus that you put your faith in is not the Jesus of the Scriptures, and it is only the Jesus of the Scriptures who really saves you.

So I think that it's actually very critical and I think it's important to point out that Paul himself talked about another Jesus that was preached that some unfortunately accept, but a Jesus that is contrary to the Jesus of Scriptures. In fact, Jesus warned in Matthew 24 that one characteristic of the end times is the fact that false messiahs would come and claim to be someone special and mislead many. And I think that false messiahs are individuals who claim to be messiah or else substitute definitions for the Jesus of Scripture. I think the denial of the deity of Christ is such a substitution.

The Scripture teaches clearly not only that any old god won't do--and we see that in statements like Exodus 20:2-3, "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me." The first commandment in fact. We must have the correct God before us. By the same token, any old Jesus won't do either. Jesus says in John 8:24, "Unless you believe that I Am, you shall die in your sins." According to Jesus it was very critical that we have a particular belief about him, and if we don't then we are lost in our sins.

It isn't enough to simply believe in Him. And by the way, that text in John 8 is when Jesus was addressing particular people who had believed in Him in some fashion. But one needs to have an accurate belief in Jesus, not just any belief in Jesus in order for the true Christ to be their savior. I think that those are very critical distinctions and we have to hold to those if the word Christian is going to continue to mean something in particular and not just any religious thought that has to do with some man or any man named Jesus.

So, i guess the question becomes whether anyone who is not a "christian" can be saved.

Further, I would be very uncomfortable suggesting great men of God of the past (like Tozer) were simply mistaken about this key doctrine.

TK

[Guest]

All,

In asking this question, I wasn't asking anyone to prove that Jesus is God, or that he claimed to be God, or that most Christians think he is God. I accept that there are some scriptures (like Hebrews 1:10) which would need to be answered if God is really only one living being. But if you don't mind, I'd like to return to the subject at hand...

This thread was asking about whether it is ever okay to worship and serve any created thing as being the one God. In all the words written in reply, only a couple of sentences have actually really dealt with the issue.

Les said:

Perhaps the God made flesh man Jesus is not part of 'creation'

And Derek said:

I don't think that Jesus qualifies as being a "created being" irregardless of His taking on human flesh.

First, we need to go back and define our terms. By created, I mean to say "come to be." I mean that something at one time did not literally exist, but then it came into literal existence. For example: all of us before a certain point in time did not literally exist. We "existed" in the foreknowledge of God, but we did not actually, literally "come to be" until sometime in the last century. That is when we were created. We haven't always literally existed, hence, we are created things.

I assume you would agree with this. If not, let me know where I'm going wrong. If you do agree... what about this man Jesus Christ, the one who was born out of a woman, out of the seed David? Has this man Jesus always literally existed, or was there a time when this man came into literal existence?

[Guest]

Has this man Jesus always literally existed, or was there a time when this man came into literal existence?


My understanding is that verses like Heb 1.10 and many others indicate he has always existed and not just as an idea in God's mind. Yet for there to be one God and yet for Christ to be divine but not another God there is only one solution IMO. Christ's divinity was given to him by Father God and as John 1.1 says at one point the Word was God yet apparently at some point the Word was also with God.
The Word seemed to be the actual force that did the creating of the universe and apparently emerged out of God at the beginning of the creation of the universe.
But the Word is not a creation He is more like a part of God IMO.

[Guest]

ely wrote:

Has this man Jesus always literally existed, or was there a time when this man came into literal existence?

are you asking if Jesus was a human being with flesh prior to the incarnation?

TK

[Guest]

Do trinitarians (and binitarians) worship the humanity of Jesus (as God)?
In other words, the man Messiah Jesus who died and rose from dead, do you worship him as God?

I'm speaking for myself. Yes, I worship the man Jesus as God.

[Guest]

Here is my philosophical argument.

Remember when Jesus died and on the 3rd day he rose again. The same body that died was the same body that rose again and when he went up to heaven he brought the same body with him as was mentioned in Acts.
Therefore when He seated at the right hand of the father which is an indication that he was glorified, the same body was also glorified because there was no mention in the bible that he left that body. The same body was always with him.

[Guest]

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

Considering the discussion here, the above reference seemed worth highlighting.

[Guest]

So Paul,

How would you respond to the suggestion that you are worshipping a created thing as God?

[Guest]

Ely-

I am not sure why you keep insisting that Jesus was "created." just because he took on a different form at the incarnation does not mean he was created.

Angels (who were created) can apparently take on the form of men (the story of sodom and gomorrah, and their visit to abraham, etc).

in order to become "human" certain human things had to happen, presumably he had to get Mary's X DNA and God himself supplied the Y chromosome DNA. but i liken it more to a transformation than a creation.

at the mount of transfiguration, the disciples saw a glimpse of his pre-incarnate glory.

Jesus has his human body at the Father's side right now, and He is to be worshipped.

TK

[Guest]

but i liken it more to a transformation than a creation.

Amen!