Worshipping the MAN Christ Jesus?

[Guest]

Ely,

Where does the bible say that Jesus was created? Perhaps if this could be shown, then your question would be answerable.

If Jesus is eternal, and is God, the incarnation does not make Him "created". Maybe you're just saying "the human side" of Jesus was created?

Well, incarnation or not, it is still Jesus, who is God, who is the creator of the world, that we're discussing here. Again, if He is eternal, then the taking on of human flesh does not make Him created.

It is Jesus we worship, and not His "divinity" or "humanity", which are descriptions of His nature, and not Him.

Jesus is unique, and cannot be placed under the catagory of "creature" as Paul speaks of in Romans 1:25 (how could He be a creature, if He is the creator?). Paul, is speaking of the moon, sun, stars, animals etc. Although he is not doing it in this context, I'm am sure human "creations" such as statues of gods would fall under this catagory as well.

So, the bible teaches that He's God, says that the world was made by His agency, and shows Him being worshipped (Heb. 1:6; Rev. 5). These factors combined show that it is ok to worship our Lord.

On a side note, (but one worth considering), the author of Romans 1:25, calls Jesus "our great God and savior", in Titus 2:13.

God bless,

[Guest]

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

Considering the discussion here, the above reference seemed worth highlighting.

Wow, I never realized the implications of that verse before. Thanks!

It's especially interesting when compared with Revelation 5:9.

Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

[Guest]

I am not sure why you keep insisting that Jesus was "created." just because he took on a different form at the incarnation does not mean he was created.

Where does the bible say that Jesus was created? Perhaps if this could be shown, then your question would be answerable.

Hey folks,
Here’s the basic argument as to why the man Jesus is part of God's creation (and thus, surely not to be worshipped as God, as per Romans 1:25). Please feel free to dissect my argument and show where I am erring.

Any created thing is called a created thing because it finds its ultimate source of origin in the creative work of the one true God, the Father.

There is one God, the Father, out of [ek] whom are all things, and we for Him 1 Corinthians 8:6


Human beings are created things. Why? Because we were made out of our parents, who were made out of their parents and so on all the way back to Adam, whom God created out of the dust of the Earth, which He had previously created out of nothing. In this way, we are part of God’s creation.

Now, in a whole plethora of scriptures, we are told about the source of origin of the man Jesus. I’ll provide a few of them:

“And Jacob begot [gennaō] Joseph the husband of Mary, out of [ek] whom was born [gennao] Jesus who is called Christ.” Matthew 1:16

Gennao, G1080
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother)

Thayer Definition:
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children

“From [apo] this man’s [David’s] seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus” Acts 13:23

Gk: Apo, 575
Thayer Definition:
1) of separation
1a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place, i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
1b) of separation of a part from the whole
1b1) where of a whole some part is taken
1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1d1) physical, of distance of place
1d2) temporal, of distance of time
2) of origin
2a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
2b) of origin of a cause

I think 1b is the best sense here. God took seperated part of the progeny of David (i.e. from Mariam) and raised up Jesus.

“Jesus Messiah our Lord, who was born [ginomai] of [ek] the seed of David according to the flesh” Romans 1:3

“when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born [ginomai] of [ek] a woman, born [ginomai] under the law” Galatians 4:4

Ginomai: Verb. Strong’s # 1096
Strong’s: to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.)

Thayer Definition:
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

Jesus “came to be”, “was generated” out of the womb of a woman (i.e. Mariam), who herself was out of the seed of David.

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same. Hebrews 2:14

Jesus was made of the same stuff as the rest of us. All humans find their source of origin in Adam, who God created out of the dust of the ground, which He had previously created out of nothing.

Where am I going wrong here?

it can be argued that everything was created through “the pre-incarnate Jesus” – fine. But all that would mean is that the man Jesus (who was generated out of Mariam, who ultimately was generated out Adam) was created through the “pre-incarnate Jesus.” It doesn’t change the fact that the man Jesus is part of God's creation (and thus, surely not to be worshipped as God, as per Romans 1:25.

[Guest]

Jesus was made of the same stuff as the rest of us. All humans find their source of origin in Adam, who God created out of the dust of the ground, which He had previously created out of nothing.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus is not exactly made of "the same stuff" as us. At least not ultimately. He "shared" in, or took part in, participated in our human nature (part of His own creation).

The context of this passage, shows this.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

He was made "for a little while" a little lower than the angels, during His ministry in the world (implying that this was not the case before).

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

He shared in His own creation, that He might save us.

it can be argued that everything was created through “the pre-incarnate Jesus” – fine. But all that would mean is that the man Jesus (who was generated out of Mariam, who ultimately was generated out Adam) was created through the “pre-incarnate Jesus.” It doesn’t change the fact that the man Jesus is part of God's creation (and thus, surely not to be worshipped as God, as per Romans 1:25.

The man Jesus, is God. He is the God-man. He became a man as part of His own creation. Therefore, He can be worshipped as God! He is worshipped as such in the bible.

[Guest]

Ely,

How do you interpret this passage:

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

If this passage is about Jesus, then it would seem to have been predicted by Isaiah that He would be called God and even Father.

[Guest]

OK Ely i guess you may never respond to Hebrews 1.8 "Your throne O God is forever and ever" because the same verse applied to Yahweh in the Psalms is applied to Jesus here.

From Hebrews again and the Rotherham bible which is favored by non trinitarians
"And let all God's messangers WORSHIP him" 1.6

[Guest]

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28

I also never really thought about this verse but it really is thought provoking.

[Guest]

The man Jesus, is God. He is the God-man. He became a man as part of His own creation.

So, God became part of His own creation. But, if a person or thing is a part of creation, it is not God, because God is in no way created:

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans 1

Is Paul not being hypocritical here, if he himself actually worshipped and served a God who had "become" a creature. A pagan could turn around say "we believe in the one Creator too. We believe He became an elephant."

Q: If you were Paul, and assuming Paul was a Trinitarian, how would you respond to such a challenge?

Also, remember when he and Barnabus were in Lystra and they healed the man (Acts 14). Remember what happened next:

and the multitudes having seen what Paul did, did lift up their voice, in the speech of Lycaonia, saying, `The gods, having become like men, did come down unto us

Now, let's be clear, they thought that two of their gods had been made like men. This was a common belief among the Greeks, after noting examples of such among Greeks, Adam Clarke comments:

It was a settled belief among the Egyptians, that their gods, sometimes in the likeness of men, and sometimes in that of animals which they held sacred, descended to the earth, and traveled through different provinces, to punish, reward, and protect. The Hindoo Avatars, or incarnations of their gods, prove how generally this opinion had prevailed. Their Poorana are full of accounts of the descent of Brahma, Vishnoo, Shiva, Naradu, and other gods, in human shape. We need not wonder to find it in Lycaonia. SOURCE: http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view. ... hapter=014

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude"

Why were they upset? First, these Lystrians thought there were many gods wheras the apostles knew there was only one God (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, etc.) But there was something else wrong. Look carefully at what they said when they ran into the multitude:

"Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them."

In other words, "we are created things just like you are, thus, we must not be worshipped. We were all created by the one true God. He is uncreated and He alone is worthy of your worship as God."

Now, if these apostles were Trinitarians and had been preaching this everywhere they went as central point of their message, could not the pagans turn around and say "yeah, but you teach that one of the persons in your God has the same nature as us too. In fact, we've heard you say that he is fully man."

Q: Again, put yourself in Paul and Barnabus' shoes, how would you respond to such a challenge?


Also, so as to allow this thread to stay on topic, for those who are wandering how Unitarians might interpret those texts (Heb 1:8, Isaiah 9:6, Acts 20:28, etc.) I would recommend a website such as the following: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... le&sid=109


Shalom

[Guest]

Also, so as to allow this thread to stay on topic, for those who are wandering how Unitarians might interpret those texts (Heb 1:8, Isaiah 9:6, Acts 20:28, etc.) I would recommend a website such as the following: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... le&sid=109


Shalom

In reference to Isaiah 9:6, I find the unitarian link you provided unconvincing. I'll give an example why:

If you look up Isaiah 9:6 “Mighty God” in Hebrew the term "ghib-bore', ghib-bore' ale" is used.
If you look at Jeremiah 32:18 it says:

Jer 32:18 You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them—the Great, the Mighty God [ghib-bore', ghib-bore' ale], whose name is the LORD [Yahweh] of hosts.

The same phrase "ghib-bore', ghib-bore' ale" is used. Is this not an example of the phrase "Mighty God" used of Yahweh? So we see that it can mean Jesus would be called Mighty God [Yahweh].

[Guest]

Ely,

Consider Phillippians 2:5-11:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I read the link you posted regarding this passage. In the whole of it, unless overlooked, I found no discussion of what is generally acknowledged, that is, that "being in the form of God" is perfectly antithetical to "taking the form of a bondservant". Thus "form" (morphe) means exactly the same thing in both places. Jesus became man in the same way He was God. The scriptures plainly teach that He existed as God, and I believe just as plainly that He became man. His favorite term for Himself, "Son of Man" was, I believe, His way of ensuring that He was understood to be fully human, counter to one of the great heresies of the early period that he was not human.

It is my belief that He limited Himself while here as a man such that He depended on faith (perfect faith) to know who He was and perform the miraculous through the power of the Spirit which came on Him at His Baptism.

In your questioning regarding whether it is proper to worship Jesus you might consider Hebrews 1:6:

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Would you say it is proper for angels to worship Jesus but not us? Are we above the angels? And why would angels be commanded to worship a mere man?

As for me, I hope we will avoid the habit of a rather notorious unitarian-universalist who continually posted links to the same website you posted the link to.