Worshipping the MAN Christ Jesus?

[Guest]

I'm a theological trinitarian.

But on the 3 threads: "Godhead", "MAN Jesus", and "Jesus the Word?" I'm unitarian! (one in-depth thread would be much easier, imo)....

Reason being is: I'm posting on different threads (essentially on the same topic: The Godhead or "Divine Nature") and don't even know if y'all are seeing (or reading!) my posts! I could post here too but it would just be "copy & paste" (lots of information)....

Well, anyways, have a good week, folks

[Guest]

Guys, the reason I posted a link to that site was not because I think it's the be all and end all of everything. But rather, I'm trying to keep this thread on topic. If you want to discuss a specific text, why not start a new thread where it can receive dedicated scrutiny?

Some have suggested that Jesus is worshipped as God in the Bible. Let's look at this:

There are two Greek words which are usually translated as worship inthe our English New Testaments. The one used with reference to Jesus is "proskuneo" (Gk: 4352):

Thayer Definition:
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
3a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
3a1) to the Jewish high priests
3a2) to God
3a3) to Christ
3a4) to heavenly beings
3a5) to demons

This word can and is used with reference to the one true God. However, on plenty of occasions, it is used with reference to human beings. The classic example is where Jesus says to the Philadelphians "I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship [proskuneo] before your feet, and to know that I have loved you." (Rev 3:9). Clearly, Jesus was not saying that these Philadelphians would be worshipped as God. Rather, he was using proskuneo in the sense of "homage shown to men and beings of superior rank." This is the same word which is used with regard to Jesus in Hebrews 1. There is a Hebrew word shalachah (H7812) which is also used with regard to men (Isa 45:14; Isa 49:23; Isa 60:14).


Now, these is another word which can be translated as worship and this is latreuo (Gk: 3000):

Thayer Definition:
1) to serve for hire
2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen
2a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship
2b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship
2b1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office

In the NT, this word always carries the meaning of religious service. apart from when idolatry is being condemned, it is always used with reference to the one true God. It is never used with reference to Jesus. He himself said to satan: "“Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship [proskuneo] the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve [latreuo].’” (the same word is used in the Septuagint in e.g. Deuteronomy 6:13, 10:20). The word comes from the noun: latreia (2999): which again, always refers to service of Yahweh: (John 16:2; Rom 9:4; Rom 12:1; Heb 9:1; Heb9:6).

So, to summarise, that Jesus is the subject of proskuneo does not mean that he is being "worshipped" as God anymore than Revelation 3:9 is evidence that Jesus will cause the Philadelphians to be worshipped as God. But Jesus and his apostles command that only the one true God is a worthy subject of latreuo.

PS - Looking forward to seeing you guys might respond to the hypothetical questions of the pagans in my previous post.

Shalom
Ely

[Guest]

Ely,

You wrote:

So, to summarise, that Jesus is the subject of proskuneo does not mean that he is being "worshipped" as God anymore than Revelation 3:9 is evidence that Jesus will cause the Philadelphians to be worshipped as God. But Jesus and his apostles command that only the one true God is a worthy subject of latreuo.

I believe your understanding of Rev. 3:9 is not correct. In the New Testament usage, proskuneo is to be directed to God alone. The Apostle Peter refused to allow Cornelius to bow down to him (Acts 10:25-26, and Rev. 19:10 and 22:8-9 show proskuneo is to be directed to God alone. Even in Matt. 18:26 the king is a symbolic figure for God. And we find proskuneo directed to the risen Lord, Matt. 28:9, 17. Why did Jesus not tell them to stop as Peter did later to Cornelius? And Luke 24:52 would not make sense if proskuneo meant no more than bowing down before someone; Jesus was ascended, He wasn't there, and can only mean they worshipped Him.

In Rev. 3:9 I believe we have the conversion of the Judaizers depicted as they bow down before the Church in homage to God. It is an act of humility to the Lord before the Church, much as one might see in a modern day alter call where the person(s) might come forward before the congregation and kneel at the alter (as I did long ago), not proskuneo directed to the congregation, but to the Lord. Certainly it is a humbling of oneself before the people but is not directed toward them.

[Guest]

So, to summarise, that Jesus is the subject of proskuneo does not mean that he is being "worshipped" as God anymore than Revelation 3:9 is evidence that Jesus will cause the Philadelphians to be worshipped as God. But Jesus and his apostles command that only the one true God is a worthy subject of latreuo.

With or without the word proskuneo, what's going on in Rev. 4-5 is clearly worship.

[Guest]

If you look up Isaiah 9:6 “Mighty God” in Hebrew the term "ghib-bore', ghib-bore' ale" is used.
If you look at Jeremiah 32:18 it says:

Isaiah 10:21 calls God the "mighty God" as well.

[Guest]

matt. 14:32-33 says:

And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.”

i am not sure what the greek word for worship is here, but it does not sate that Jesus told them not to do so.

TK

[Guest]

Homer,

Your explanation of Revelation 3:9 is a forced and unnecessary one. Look at the text:

Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

You can't have it both ways. If proskuneo means worship as God (or a god) then Jesus is going to make some people worship the Philadelphians as gods - thus instigating idolatry. But let me explain why it kosher for Jesus to make these people to proskuneo before the Philadelphians feet:

There is a Hebrew word which is often translated as “worship” in our English versions. Strong's has:

H7812
שׁחה
shâchâh
shaw-khaw'
A primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): - bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

I’ve just finished a search of every occasion where the Hebrew word “Shachah” is used in the Tanakh. It is used 171 times according to E-Sword. On several occasions, it describes something done toward the one true God, Yahweh. On several other occasions, it’s also done toward idols, and the heavenly host. Indeed, Yahweh repeatedly prohibits shachah to be done toward idols and the heavenly host. But on several occasions, it is done toward men. I then crosschecked in the Septuagint to see what Greek words are used to translate Shachah in these cases. Guess what? Yep… In every occasion, the LXX uses Proskuneo.

The following people are the recipient of “worship” (Hebrews – Shachah/ LXX – Proskuneo) in the Tanakh

The two angels who went to see Lot (Gen 19:1), the people of Heth (Gen 23:7) Esau (Gen 33:3, 6-7), Joseph (Gen 42:6), Moses (Exo 11:8), Moses’ Father in Law (Exo 18:7), Boaz (Ruth 2:10), Jonathan (1 Sam 20:41), Saul (1 Sam 24:8), David (on lots of occasions, incl. 1 Sam 25:23), Joab (2 Sam 18:21), Solomon (1 Kin 1:53), Bathsheba (1 Kin 2:19), Joash (2 Chr 24:17), Israel (Isaiah 49:23).

If shachah/proskuneo is something that only means worship in a religious sense, then we have a whole bunch of idolatry being done by some mighty men and women of God including Abraham and David. What’s going on?

This is actually an excellent lesson in the need to interpret the scriptures in their cultural context. Evidently, for the people of the Ancient Near East, to shachah/proskuneo before a person did not automatically mean that you considered them to be divine beings. Rather, it was an act which showed respect. When Bathsheba bowed down to David (1 Kings 1:16) it didn’t mean she considered him to be Yahweh anymore than when Solomon bowed down before Bathsheba, it meant he thought she was Yahweh (1 Kings 2:19). It’s about respect. The NT must be understood against this background.

Now, Jesus is often the subjkect of Proskuneo (never "lateria" - an action of which only the one true God is the worthy recipient). If David is worthy of proskuneo, how much more so Jesus. Those who reverenced him wewre aknowledging him to be a very great man, the promised one, the Son of Son of God, the King of Israel, the Messiah, who would rule the whle world in righteousness. I think it makes sense that you would proskuneo before such a great man. Given the historical background, it would be a real stretch to think that all of those people who “proskuneo’d” before Jesus thought that he was literally, Yahweh in the flesh. No, it's about respect.

A person from South Asia or Africa or the Middle East (and probably other areas too) would not have a problem in relating to this. I’m from East Africa. Often, when female cousin greet my Dad, they actually stop what they are doing and fall done to their knees before him. They will not get up again until they have finished exchanging the customary greetings. Needless to say, these (often born again Christian) relatives of mine do not think my Dad is literally Yahweh in the flesh. What would that make me!?! Again, it's all about respect.

Now, if all this be the case, why did Peter tell Cornelius not to proskuneo him? Well, as we have seen, it certainly wasn’t because proskuneo was something that only denoted that the recipient is a divine being. Why would a monotheist like Cornelius assume that Peter was Yahweh? No, Cornelius was probably just being a bit too hasty with his reverence. Same with John and the angel in Revelation. Lot bowed down (shachah/proskuneo) to the angels who visited him. Apparently, they didn’t see any need to stop him from doing so. He was evidently not doing anything out of the ordinary in giving honour to these highly esteemed guests.


BTW – I found the information on the LXX from the following site which has a Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint with Strong’s numbers. Honestly, God has been so good in providing us affluent westerners with these kinds of resources – for free:
http://apostolicbible.com/downbook.htm

Shalom til next time,
Ely

[Guest]

"Jesus is worshipped as God in Revelation"

Well, the argument that has been presented in favour of this idea is that similar language is used concerning the Father and Jesus. For example, we read in chapter 5:

Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

So, is this meant to indicate that both He who sits on the throne and the Lamb are the one true God? Let’s me show some evidence that Jesus is not being worshipped as God in Revelation:

First of all, let’s look again at chapter 4:

“Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald…

We are agreed that this is a vision of God, the Father. Okay, what do the heavenly host say concerning Him:

“ Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”

Alright, the Father is Lord God Almighty. This term Almighty [pantokrator] means the one who holds sway over all things, the ruler of all, the one with the ultimate power.

So, is there any place in Revelation where Jesus is explicitly called the Lord God Almighty? No. Is there any place therin where the Lord God Almighty is explicitly stated to be someone different to Jesus the Messiah? Yes, for example:

“But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.” 21:22

The Lamb is someone different from the Lord God Almighty. In fact, we also read in chapter 15:3:


Continuing with the Lord God Almighty in chapter 4:

11 “ You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For [because] You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

Now, this is critical. The Lord God Almighty is worthy because He created all things. Again, the Lord God Almighty created all things and that is why He is worthy of glory and honour and power.

Why then, is the Lamb worthy of glory, honour and power? Is it because he too created the heavens and the Earth and all things in them? We see in Chapter 5:

“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For [because] you were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Notice, the reason for his receiving glory and honour is because of his redeeming work – not because He created all things, only the Lord God Almighty gets credit for that. This should be the foundation of all of our prayer and praise. Aknowledge the one true God as being the Almighty, the Creator of all things.

Also notice the phrase “[you] have redeemed us to God by your blood.” This should alert us to the fact that God is someone other than the Lamb! There is nowhere in Revelation where the Lamb is called God. God (who is the Lord God Almighty) is always a different person to the Lamb. For example:

“Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 7:10

“The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ” 11:15

In fact, the Lamb himself has a God:

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. 1:5-6

“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.” 3:22

So, in Revelation, we have two persons. One is the Lord God Almighty, God, He who sits on His throne, He who created the heavens and the Earth and everything that is in them. The other is the Lamb, Jesus Christ, the one who was slain and redeemed many to His God and Father. Jesus is not called God, let alone Lord God, let alone Lord god Almighty and is not said to have created all things. Therefore, I see no reason to say that Jesus was being worshipped as God in Revelation.


A valid quesiton has been asked, how can Jesus be worthy of such adulation if he is not God? Well, there is a precedent for this:

Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the LORD your God.” So all the assembly blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves [shachah/proskuneo] before the LORD and the king. 2 Chronicles 29:20

David is a type of his son Jesus the Messiah. If David was reverenced virtually alongside Yahweh. How much more so Jesus? But this does not mean Jesus is Yahweh. Yahweh is one person, the Lord God Almighty, who created all things. Jesus, being a descendant of Adam, is part of His creation. Because of his obedience to His Father and our Father, His God and our God, he has inherited a kingdom and an inheritance far far surpsassing any other. Because of this, he is far more worthy or reverence than any man who has ever lived.

Shalom
Ely

PS - I very much hope that the questions I posed a couple of posts earlier might be addressed at some stage.

[Guest]

The Lamb is someone different from the Lord God Almighty. In fact, we also read in chapter 15:3:


I can't speak for anyone else but i don't know what this line of reasoning is supposed to prove except to a Jesus "Oneness" person. No one is asserting that Jesus is not a different being then Yahweh only that the diety of God is not subject to the physical limitation of one person. God is transcendent and He manifested his divinity in the OT in many different forms while He simultaneouly existed in heaven.
Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth therefore He is not just an agent of Yahweh , he is diety of this universe. Yahweh is the source and Jesus is subject to Him but He is not a creation of Yahweh , he is a part of Yahweh.
That's what scripture indicates because the same type of descriptions given to Yahweh in the OT are given to Jesus in the NT.

[Guest]

So, is there any place in Revelation where Jesus is explicitly called the Lord God Almighty? No.

Yes. There is. Revelation 1:8.

Jesus says:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

We know this is Jesus because, John turns, to see who this voice is:

Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;

He sees "one like the son of man" (like a human), who says:

Rev. 1:17b "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

To miss the paralellism between this statement, and vs. 8 is simply to be blinded by your theology.

"Alpha and Omega, beginning and the end" in vs.8 / "first and last" in vs.17 (cf. Is. 41:4; 44:6; 48:12)

"which is, which was, and which is to come" in vs. 8 / "I am he that liveth, and was dead, and behold I am alive for evermore" in vs.18.

Jesus also claims the divine titles, "alpha and omega", "the beginning and the ending", and "the first and the last" in Rev. 22:13, further substantiating the claim that it is Him speaking in 1:8.

Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

With that out of the way, let's look at the rest of your post.

So, in Revelation, we have two persons. One is the Lord God Almighty, God, He who sits on His throne, He who created the heavens and the Earth and everything that is in them. The other is the Lamb, Jesus Christ, the one who was slain and redeemed many to His God and Father. Jesus is not called God, let alone Lord God, let alone Lord god Almighty and is not said to have created all things. Therefore, I see no reason to say that Jesus was being worshipped as God in Revelation.

I am assuming everyone agrees that we have two persons here brother. However, it has been shown that Jesus is called God, (among other divine titles), not only in this book, but elsewhere in the scriptures.

The fact is, virtually the same things are said to God, and the Lamb. What is idolatry, if it is not thowing yourself before one who is not God, but a mere creature (which you havn't shown that He is by the way), and saying all of the same things you say to God to Him?

That the Father is usually called God, and the Son other names, is not something that is new to trinitarians. However, it is not true that Jesus is never called God.

He is called God outright in this book (see above), in John 1:1; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; and Hebrews 1:8 and very possibly 1 John 5:20. There are many more allusions to Him being God as well.

Also notice the phrase “[you] have redeemed us to God by your blood.” This should alert us to the fact that God is someone other than the Lamb!

Who's blood Ely? Elswhere it's said to be God's.

Act 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Notice, the reason for his receiving glory and honour is because of his redeeming work...

Regardless of the reason, they are both worshipped.

A valid quesiton has been asked, how can Jesus be worthy of such adulation if he is not God? Well, there is a precedent for this:

Then David said to all the assembly, “Now bless the LORD your God.” So all the assembly blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and prostrated themselves [shachah/proskuneo] before the LORD and the king. 2 Chronicles 29:20

I would agree that this passage shows the people in an outward sign of reverence to both man, and God. I have not stated that the word proskuneo is only used toward God. That's not my argument. I have stated that Jesus is God, as Revelation shows, in the above passages, and in Revelation 5, all the same things that are said to the Father, are said to the Lamb, therefore proskuneo means more in this passage, that the I Chronicles passage. It means worship.

PS - I very much hope that the questions I posed a couple of posts earlier might be addressed at some stage.

I think that your questions are invalidated by the fact that Jesus is not created, and is therefore not a creature, however, I will seek to answer them tomorrow. Off to bed for now!

God bless bro,