Israel

[Guest]

Allyn,

As I have only a moment, I am in agreement with you. Whether Israel or the Nations, all must come to Christ for salvation. But, that is not my point. The issue is "how" will God bring Israel to repentance in Christ?
The "remnant" is not the problem. As I've said, in every age the faithful who constitutes the "remnant" is not, in my opinion, being refered to by Paul or the Prophets. Isn't it the unbelieving majority with-in Israel who will be brought to faith in Christ? Why would God make a fuss over the "faithful son" when it is the "Prodigle" or lost son whom He seeks?
Paul seems to speak of those whom God has "blinded" and judicially hardened as the future benificiaries of His grace. Not the remnant. They (like Paul) have already recieved Christ. Israel therefore is divided into two camps if I understand Paul at all.
Peace
Bob

[Guest]

Allyn,

As I have only a moment, I am in agreement with you. Whether Israel or the Nations, all must come to Christ for salvation. But, that is not my point. The issue is "how" will God bring Israel to repentance in Christ?
The "remnant" is not the problem. As I've said, in every age the faithful who constitutes the "remnant" is not, in my opinion, being refered to by Paul or the Prophets. Isn't it the unbelieving majority with-in Israel who will be brought to faith in Christ? Why would God make a fuss over the "faithful son" when it is the "Prodigle" or lost son whom He seeks?
Paul seems to speak of those whom God has "blinded" and judicially hardened as the future benificiaries of His grace. Not the remnant. They (like Paul) have already recieved Christ. Israel therefore is divided into two camps if I understand Paul at all.
Peace
Bob

I know this discussion has had its time in the light before, but its good to do it again. I feel others will want to join in, but I would ask that before I do any more on this thread that you, Bob, copy and paste the pertinent passage that give you your understanding. I am assuming you are referring to Romans chapters 9-11. If so, then post from those chapters and we will be happy to give our point of view as varied as it may be.

[Guest]

Paul seems to speak of those whom God has "blinded" and judicially hardened as the future benificiaries of His grace. Not the remnant. They (like Paul) have already recieved Christ. Israel therefore is divided into two camps if I understand Paul at all.

I agree that it's a possibility that God has some purpose for Israel's existence and Paul may be referring to two different Israel's in Romans 11.

There are several time prophecies that may be true about Israel, here is one.
God warned Israel that if they would not obey him they would be subject to 7 times punishment. "And if you will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then i will punish you seven times more for your sins" Lev 26.18
This warning of 7 times more of punishment is repeated 4 times.
In 606BC Nebuchadnezzar defeated Zedekiah and Israel lost it's independence. If we allow a year to be symbolic of a day we could say 7x365 years = 2,555 years. From 606BC add 2,555 years and it comes to 1949AD or within a year of Israel regaining it's independence and existence restored.

[Guest]

However a Jewish year is not 365 days but more like 336 days and you would also need to take into account the leap year that Jews have. The Jewish month is from one new moon to the next which is about 28 days.

this would put the re-establishment of Israel at 1746 or somewhere in that area not counting the leap year.

[Guest]

Traveler wrote:

My question to all is what role if any does or will Israel play in the plan of God? Is there any good reason to think God has replaced Israel with the Church? They are afterall back in the Land. Although the majority are in unbelief. What are your thoughts?
In my own opinion Israel

actually Paul answerd yor questions.

Romans 9:1-5

1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart

Paul is in pain because his fellow countyrmen (Israelites) were lost in darkness.They are not save.

3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race

Paul is saying that he is willing to give up his salvation and give it to his countrymen so that they my be save. Most parents will give up their life if it will keep their sick children alive.

4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons;theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

Paul is telling us that God adopted Israel to be his sons that is if they will remain obedient to God. He also said that God gave them the covenant, temple worship, the patriarchs, the promises, and from their blood line Christ came.

See 2Kings 17:19-20

19 Also Judah did not keep the commandments of the Lord their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 20 And the Lord rejected all the descendants of Israel, afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of plunderers, until He had cast them from His sight

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

It is clear from this passage that not all descendants of Abraham will be save some will be lost.

7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children.

"Abraham's children" in this passage is referring to God's children

On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned

This means that the one who will redeem us will come from the blood line of Isaac and not Ishmael. Who is the offspring of Abraham? The offspring of Abraham are the people who came from Isaac and Ishmael in short redemption will be available for the offspring of Isaac and Ishmael who are also the offspring of Abraham.

8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

The natural children is referring to the offspring of Abraham and Paul is telling us that you don't become save beacuse you are the offspring but rather you become save because you are the children of the promise ( Christ)that 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

[Guest]

Therfore the plan of God for Israel is the same with the gentiles that is to be save through Christ.

Rebuilding a temple and going back in their homeland does not mean anything. actually rebuilding the temple will be a sign of rebellion against God so I hope they don't rebuild that temple.

[Guest]

There are several time prophecies that may be true about Israel, here is one.
God warned Israel that if they would not obey him they would be subject to 7 times punishment. "And if you will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then i will punish you seven times more for your sins" Lev 26.18
This warning of 7 times more of punishment is repeated 4 times.
In 606BC Nebuchadnezzar defeated Zedekiah and Israel lost it's independence. If we allow a year to be symbolic of a day we could say 7x365 years = 2,555 years. From 606BC add 2,555 years and it comes to 1949AD or within a year of Israel regaining it's independence and existence restored


I'm not sure why God would use the lunar year when the modern measurement solar year is 365.24198 days per year. After all though Moses spoke to the jews they had no idea what this prophecy may have meant and God really was speaking to a bigger audience. The modern measurement would add a year and come to 1950.69
So we get within 3 years of 1948 and considering the length of time involved and the fact that ancient dates were not always precise, who knows?
I'm not claiming that any temple will be rebuilt only that perhaps God isn't finished with natural Israel.

[Guest]

The modern measurement would add a year and come to 1950.69
So we get within 3 years of 1948 and considering the length of time involved and the fact that ancient dates were not always precise, who knows?

If I remember it correctly, Steve mentioned in his teachings that some of the dates and numbers in the bible were rounded off for example 97 years will be rounded off to 100 years or 97,000 men will be 100,00 men.

I'm not claiming that any temple will be rebuilt only that perhaps God isn't finished with natural Israel

I agree that God is not finished with the natural Israel what I meant is that God is still in the business of convicting the Israelites with their sins so that they may repent and turn to Christ. God has not closed his doors from the Israelites they can still be part of God's family if they will follow Christ.

[Guest]

Allyn wrote:



"I know this discussion has had its time in the light before, but its good to do it again. I feel others will want to join in, but I would ask that before I do any more on this thread that you, Bob, copy and paste the pertinent passage that give you your understanding. I am assuming you are referring to Romans chapters 9-11. If so, then post from those chapters and we will be happy to give our point of view as varied as it may be."

Romans 9-11: Paul is IMO, speaking of 4 groups of people:
1) Israel as a nation in general; 2) The present Remnant 3) The Church composed of the Remnant and the believing Gentiles 4) unbelieving Israel and her future acceptance of Christ and being re-grafted into the Vine.

Ezek 16:59-63; Promise of Atonement, Ezek 20:32-44 Judgement and restoration, Ezek 34-36, False shepherds, Messiah's rule on the throne of David, restoration to the land in security under the New Covenant.

Jer 23, 24, 30-31 "The Righteous Branch", promise of a new heart, the New Covenant and asscociated promises.

Hosea 3:4-5, 11:1-8 Reconcilation and love of His divorced wife Israel

Zech 8,10,12-14. Restoration of the repentant nation and the grace of the ONE whom they've pierced.

These scriptures among others and the fact that Israel is back in the Land
is why I believe God is not finished with them yet as a distinct people. They are distinct from the Church in the sense of being broken off the True Vine. But Paul said they can and will be grafted back into the Vine provided they repent. They are back in the Land not so much because of an inherent right to it as some may believe. God is the landowner. Neither are they there because of any "blood" relation to Abraham, although God did give it to him in perpituity and to his seed (Christ). They are back in the land IMO for at least two reasons; #1 God said he would bring them back and he would bring them to repentance "to show the holiness of his GREAT NAME they have profaned among the nations" and #2 that the nations may know that the LORD is God.

Now when it will all play out and how, is anybody''s guess. But what difference does it make to you and I in terms of our following Jesus.
Much. As Jesus said, "salvation is from the Jews." He seeks the lost sheep of Israel first. Paul said salvation is to the Jew first, then the Gentile.
The Remnant in every age has always remained faithful. There is no reason as I've said earlier for God to make a fuss over the remnant. they are already saved. It is the lost he seeks and will bring them to National repentance. ...then the saying "and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced".. will become a meaningful reality.

Blessings in Jesus,
Bob