Another philosophical problem with Calvinism

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:37 am

A different god is being worshipped.
Worshipping a different god saves no one and is damnable.
I am convinced that the god of Open Theism is not the Biblical God.

God is apart from, distinct from, not subject to, separate from time.
Anything that happens post "In the beginning God" is a created thing.
That includes time.
Einstein fiddles with the concept, God created it.

Mark

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:44 am

I'm curious. When you say that it is damnable, do you intend that as technical language, i.e. acceptance of open theism is incompatible with saving faith?

Saving faith has a Savior as it's object. Open Theism has a different object in mind.

Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;

Isa 48:3 I have foretold the former things from the beginning; and they went out of My mouth; and I made them hear; I acted suddenly; and they came about.

Isa 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when you did not hear them; lest you should say, Behold, I knew them.

Isa 41:4 Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.

2Sa 22:3 The God who is my Rock, in Him will I trust. He is my Shield, and the Horn of my salvation, my High Tower, and my Refuge, my Savior. You save me from violence.

Isa 45:15 Truly You are a God who hides Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior.

Isa 45:21 Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me.

Hos 13:4 Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in His time; also He has set eternity in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God makes from the beginning to the end.

Isa 40:21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?

Isa 41:26 Who has declared from the beginning, that we may know? And beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? Yea, no one declares; yea, no one proclaims; yea, no one hears your words.

Mark

Post by **__id_1512** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:08 am

tartanarmy wrote:A different god is being worshipped.
Worshipping a different god saves no one and is damnable.
I am convinced that the god of Open Theism is not the Biblical God.

So is that a yes? You think that professing Christians who hear and eventually accept open theism are thereby failing to persevere, demonstrating that they were never truly saved? The Holy Spirit will preserve any believer from becoming deceived by open theism?

So suppose an open theist preaches the Gospel in China--say, he preaches through the Roman Road. Some of those listening profess repentance and belief, so he starts discipling them--including about the nature of God's foreknowledge. If they are true converts, will they be preserved from accepting that doctrine, or could they be deceived about that aspect of God's nature? If they were deceived, would that make you conclude that they were false believers?

If you're not sure, that's fine, I don't mean to insist on a definite answer. If you think it's close, but you're not able to say for sure, then OK. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, so I'm asking for clarification.

God is apart from, distinct from, not subject to, separate from time.
Anything that happens post "In the beginning God" is a created thing.
That includes time.

So you see "In the beginning God" as definitely teaching that God does not experience sequence of events in His own mind, but exists in an eternal now?

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:33 am

tartanarmy wrote:

A different god is being worshipped.
Worshipping a different god saves no one and is damnable.
I am convinced that the god of Open Theism is not the Biblical God.

So is that a yes? You think that professing Christians who hear and eventually accept open theism are thereby failing to persevere, demonstrating that they were never truly saved? The Holy Spirit will preserve any believer from becoming deceived by open theism?

Yes, scripture tells me as much

Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders; so much so that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the elect.

So suppose an open theist preaches the Gospel in China--say, he preaches through the Roman Road.

Some of those listening profess repentance and belief, so he starts discipling them--including about the nature of God's foreknowledge. If they are true converts, will they be preserved from accepting that doctrine, or could they be deceived about that aspect of God's nature? If they were deceived, would that make you conclude that they were false believers?

You are confusing categories, a basic error in logic.
Believers shall perservere and new believers can be converted even by the stones calling out. Luk 19:40
False preachers = False new believers is a non sequitur.

If you're not sure, that's fine, I don't mean to insist on a definite answer.

When definite is available, I preach it as much as possible brother. If not, I tend to keep quiet and scratch my head.

If you think it's close, but you're not able to say for sure, then OK. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, so I'm asking for clarification.

Playing or toying with Open Theism does not equate to embracing Open Theism. Hope that helps a little for clarification purposes.

I do not know nor have read enough here at these forums to form a firm judgement whether people here are embracing Open Theism rather than just checking it out!

Quote:
God is apart from, distinct from, not subject to, separate from time.
Anything that happens post "In the beginning God" is a created thing.
That includes time.

So you see "In the beginning God" as definitely teaching that God does not experience sequence of events in His own mind, but exists in an eternal now?

Yep, otherwise God is just like us, minus the baldness and pain killers!
Not just that passage either! There are hundreds of verses!
God is above mere experience.

We think God’s thoughts after him not like Him.

Mark

Post by **__id_1512** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:55 am

tartanarmy wrote:So is that a yes? You think that professing Christians who hear and eventually accept open theism are thereby failing to persevere, demonstrating that they were never truly saved? The Holy Spirit will preserve any believer from becoming deceived by open theism?

Yes, scripture tells me as much

Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders; so much so that, if it were possible, they would deceive even the elect.

OK, thank you.

Just to be clear, I wasn't questioning whether the Holy Spirit will preserve the elect from becoming deceived about matters which determine salvation. I was using that wording to verify that you were indeed saying open theism is one of those matters, such that a person who accepts the doctrine is thereby revealed to be a false brother.

So suppose an open theist preaches the Gospel in China--say, he preaches through the Roman Road.

Some of those listening profess repentance and belief, so he starts discipling them--including about the nature of God's foreknowledge. If they are true converts, will they be preserved from accepting that doctrine, or could they be deceived about that aspect of God's nature? If they were deceived, would that make you conclude that they were false believers?
You are confusing categories, a basic error in logic.
Believers shall perservere and new believers can be converted even by the stones calling out. Luk 19:40
False preachers = False new believers is a non sequitur.

Ah, no, I did not say that at all. I did not question whether God could use even the gospel proclamation of a false preacher to bring sinners to repentance. I assumed that. I asked you whether those new believers could be deceived in the matter of open theism by the false preacher.

Playing or toying with Open Theism does not equate to embracing Open Theism. Hope that helps a little for clarification purposes.

Yes, that's a distinction to consider.

So you see "In the beginning God" as definitely teaching that God does not experience sequence of events in His own mind, but exists in an eternal now?
Yep, otherwise God is just like us, minus the baldness and pain killers!
Not just that passage either! There are hundreds of verses!
God is above mere experience.

We think God’s thoughts after him not like Him.

OK. Myself, I haven't been able to find any such clear teaching, in Genesis 1:1 or elsewhere. As far as I can tell at the moment, the idea that God does not experience sequence of events in His own mind is as much a philosophical presupposition brought to the text as is libertarian free will. I haven't been able to see it in the passages to which people appeal.

Post by **__id_1512** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:17 am

Jugulum wrote:OK. Myself, I haven't been able to find any such clear teaching, in Genesis 1:1 or elsewhere. As far as I can tell at the moment, the idea that God does not experience sequence of events in His own mind is as much a philosophical presupposition brought to the text as is libertarian free will. I haven't been able to see it in the passages to which people appeal.

Uh, perhaps I should clarify this. I was not referring here to God's exhaustive definite foreknowledge. I was only referring to that idea that in God's mind, He exists in an eternal now.

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:52 am

I am not an open theist, but some of what they say makes sense. When it is asserted that the logical conclusion of Arminianism is full open theism, the Calvinist should bear in mind that the logical conclusion of what he teaches is that a God who has ordained all things meticulously is responsible for that which He ordains and that it is useless to pray because God will not respond and change anything.

The ordinary person reading the scriptures will find that God does in fact respond to the prayers of men and acts accordingly. He certainly has done so in the case of King Hezekiah, 2 Kings 20. And James informs us that "the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much". What hope or comfort is in prayer if all is predetermined and unalterable?

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:21 am

It does not follow that Calvinism leads to prayer being a waste of time.
Calvinism teaches that God has decreed that He works through means, so that in His meticulous control, prayer is a means that God predestines, even our struggling in prayer is a means God has ordained for His purposes.

No, Calvinism does not lead to prayer being a waste of time at all, quite the contrary!
How exciting to know that our prayers have been ordained by God and can be a means of very great significance!

What about the Non Calvinists prayer? Have you ever prayed that the Lord would soften or change someones heart? Ever?

If you have, then you are a closet Calvinist!

Mark