God's Providence in Preservation

[Guest]

Howdy all.

I thought I would start a series of threads on the sovereignty of God. This first thread will attempt to examine a Scriptural account of God's ongoing preservation of everything that He spoke into existence. The bold sections of Scripture are provided for emphasis.

Nehemiah 9:5-6
5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, “Stand up and bless the LORD your God from everlasting to everlasting. Blessed be your glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
6 “You are the LORD, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.

According to Ezra, God made everything and God preserves everything that He made.

Hebrews 1:1-4
1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

The author of Hebrews testifies that God created the world through Christ and that Christ "upholds the universe by the word of his power". Have you ever thought of Christ upholding the universe while he was dying on the cross and then continuing to uphold it while in the grave?

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Feast on those 5 verses for awhile. I am pretty sure that some "bad guys" might be included in the "visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him" part.

Acts 17:22-28
22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for
“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

Wow! "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,. That is some pretty cool providence.

Job 34:14-15
14 If he should set his heart to it
and gather to himself his spirit and his breath,
15 all flesh would perish together,
and man would return to dust.

It looks like Job's friend Elihu got this one right.


2 Peter 3:1-13
3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

God is actively sustaining everything that He made, but not forever.......


Looking foward to some dialogue. Blessings in Christ.

Haas

[Guest]

Cool. It looks like people here are down with God actively preserving everything that he has made.

I will try to start a new thread on the sovereignty of God in other areas When I have time.

peace,


Haas

[Guest]

Instead of starting a new thread, I will move forward on this one.

I posted this on another board a little while back.

Psalm 135:4-6
4 For the LORD has chosen Jacob for himself,
Israel as his own possession.
5 For I know that the LORD is great,
and that our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does,
in heaven and on earth,
in the seas and all deeps.

Jeremiah 10:23-24
23 I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself,
that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
24 Correct me, O LORD, but in justice;
not in your anger, lest you bring me to nothing.


II Samuel 24:1-4
24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2 So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.” 3 But Joab said to the king, “May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it, but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?” 4 But the king's word prevailed against Joab and the commanders of the army. So Joab and the commanders of the army went out from the presence of the king to number the people of Israel.


I Chronicles 21:1-4
21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, “Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number.” 3 But Joab said, “May the LORD add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord's servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should it be a cause of guilt for Israel?” 4 But the king's word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel and came back to Jerusalem.

II Samuel 24:10-14
10 But David's heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.” 11 And when David arose in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, 12 “Go and say to David, ‘Thus says the LORD, Three things I offer you. Choose one of them, that I may do it to you.’” 13 So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, “Shall three years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.” 14 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but let me not fall into the hand of man.”

II Samuel 24:15-17
15 So the LORD sent a pestilence on Israel from the morning until the appointed time. And there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men. 16 And when the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who was working destruction among the people, “It is enough; now stay your hand.” And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 17 Then David spoke to the LORD when he saw the angel who was striking the people, and said, “Behold, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly. But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your hand be against me and against my father's house.” [see also I Chronicles 21:7-17

Bold sections added by me for emphasis.

Some comments:
1. God was angry with Israel and incited David to take a census.
2. Satan (under the Sovereignty of God) stood against Israel and incited David to take a census.
3. David was convicted of his sin for taking the census.
4. God gave three choices of punishment for David and Israel for the sin of David taking the census.
5. David cast himself on the punishment and mercy of God rather than be left to men.
6. 70,000 people died because of David's sin.
7. God showed mercy to David and Israel by not taking more lives for David's sin.
8. David again confesses his wickedness before God.

Wow!


Blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

More to prayerfully consider:

Judges 13:1-7
13:1 And the people of Israel again did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD gave them into the hand of the Philistines for forty years.
2 There was a certain man of Zorah, of the tribe of the Danites, whose name was Manoah. And his wife was barren and had no children. 3 And the angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, “Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. 4 Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, 5 for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines.” 6 Then the woman came and told her husband, “A man of God came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. I did not ask him where he was from, and he did not tell me his name, 7 but he said to me, ‘Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.’”

Judges 13:24-25

24 And the woman bore a son and called his name Samson. And the young man grew, and the LORD blessed him. 25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to stir him in Mahaneh-dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.

Judges 14:1-4
14:1 Samson went down to Timnah, and at Timnah he saw one of the daughters of the Philistines. 2 Then he came up and told his father and mother, “I saw one of the daughters of the Philistines at Timnah. Now get her for me as my wife.” 3 But his father and mother said to him, “Is there not a woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you must go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she is right in my eyes.”
4 His father and mother did not know that it was from the LORD, for he was seeking an opportunity against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines ruled over Israel.



Joshua 23:11-13
11 Be very careful, therefore, to love the LORD your God. 12 For if you turn back and cling to the remnant of these nations remaining among you and make marriages with them, so that you associate with them and they with you, 13 know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you, but they shall be a snare and a trap for you, a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good ground that the LORD your God has given you.


Some comments:
1. God hands the Israelites over to the Philistines because of their rebellion against Him.
2. God sends an angel to announce that a barren woman(couple) will give birth to a son. He is to be a Nazarite.
3. The boy (Samson) is born and starts to grow into a young man and is blessed by God. The Spirit of the Lord starts to stir in Samson.
4. The next thing we are told that Samson does is seek a wife from the enemy. His parents are alarmed that Samson would not find a women from among the Israelites.
5. Samsons parents did not know that "it was from the Lord (though God warned the Israelites not to marry from the remnant nations see Joshua 23-11-13).
6. God's purposes are accomplished even though Samson breaks his Nazarite vow and sins continually throughout the whole story.

God is God.


Blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

hey Haas--

thanks for posting all of this... but i am not sure why you are doing so. Are you trying to refute something that has been said elsewhere, or are you looking for a debate, or what?

i think the reason you are not getting any response is that it is not clear what you are looking for.

if it is mainly for the purpose of edification/encouragement, thanks!


TK

[Guest]

TK-

thanks for posting all of this... but i am not sure why you are doing so. Are you trying to refute something that has been said elsewhere, or are you looking for a debate, or what?

I see the sovereignty of God (and it's application) as a (if not the) core issue between Reform Theology and Arminianism. I think it is good to try to lay a foundation for a position. It isn't my desire to "win" a debate. So yes, I do hope that my posts are an encouragement.


Maybe this will generate a little bit more discussion:

Dr. Wayne Grudem divides God's providence into three subtopics: (1) Preservation, (2) Concurrence, and (3) Government.

Grudem's definition of God's providence: God is continually involved with all created things in such a way that he (1) keeps them existing and maintaining the properties with which he created them; (2) cooperates with created things in every action, directing their distinctive properties to cause them to act as they do; and (3) directs them to fulfill his purposes.

I would imagine that #2 (concurrence) and #3 (government) is where we might find the biggest differences among folks.

My hope is that the discussion is one that is Scripture saturated.

peace,

Haas

[Guest]

Here is hoping for some scripture saturated conversation brother!

Mark

[Guest]

The book of Job is probably what started me asking more questions of the nature of God's sovereignty than any other book in the Bible.

I pray that a peek into the story of Job would be a blessing to those who happen to read this (hopefully people will be moved to read the entire book).

First a bit from the book of Numbers:


Numbers 23:13-24
13 And Balak said to him, “Please come with me to another place, from which you may see them. You shall see only a fraction of them and shall not see them all. Then curse them for me from there.” 14 And he took him to the field of Zophim, to the top of Pisgah, and built seven altars and offered a bull and a ram on each altar. 15 Balaam said to Balak, “Stand here beside your burnt offering, while I meet the LORD over there.” 16 And the LORD met Balaam and put a word in his mouth and said, “Return to Balak, and thus shall you speak.” 17 And he came to him, and behold, he was standing beside his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said to him, “What has the LORD spoken?” 18 And Balaam took up his discourse and said,
“Rise, Balak, and hear;
give ear to me, O son of Zippor:
19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
20 Behold, I received a command to bless:
he has blessed, and I cannot revoke it.
21 He has not beheld misfortune in Jacob,
nor has he seen trouble in Israel.
The LORD their God is with them,
and the shout of a king is among them.
22 God brings them out of Egypt
and is for them like the horns of the wild ox.
23 For there is no enchantment against Jacob,
no divination against Israel;
now it shall be said of Jacob and Israel,
‘What has God wrought!’
24 Behold, a people! As a lioness it rises up
and as a lion it lifts itself;
it does not lie down until it has devoured the prey
and drunk the blood of the slain.”


19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

I feel it is important to consider that "God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind".



Now to Job.

Job 1
1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. 2 There were born to him seven sons and three daughters. 3 He possessed 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, and 500 female donkeys, and very many servants, so that this man was the greatest of all the people of the east. 4 His sons used to go and hold a feast in the house of each one on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 And when the days of the feast had run their course, Job would send and consecrate them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, “It may be that my children have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 14 and there came a messenger to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 and the Sabeans fell upon them and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 17 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “The Chaldeans formed three groups and made a raid on the camels and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you.” 18 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and behold, a great wind came across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young people, and they are dead, and I alone have escaped to tell you.”

20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”
22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.

Some comments:

1. Satan presents himself before God.
2. God not Satan brings up Job ("And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job). Then Satan "challenges" God about Job.
3. What transpires next could easily be the most intense "This was the worst day of my life" story ever. After everthing else Job finds out that "“Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and behold, a great wind came across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young people, and they are dead."
4. Job's reaction is mind blowing ("Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped").
5. Job mentions nothing about Satan's involvement in this situation. Instead, Job says “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”
6. The inspired writer of the book of Job correctly states that "In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong."


For those asking "why again post all this"? That we might praise God Almighty for this is the God of the Bible who [Romans 5:8] "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."


To be continued if the Lord so wills,

Haas

[Guest]

What do you mean by "God's sovereignty", Haas? Do you mean that God directly controls, and is responsible for, every event that ever happened?
If so, then every torture, every rape and murder of little girls, is to be attributed to God. I don't think so.

Grudem's definition of God's providence: God is continually involved with all created things in such a way that he (1) keeps them existing and maintaining the properties with which he created them...

In what sense is God "continually involved with all created things in such a way that he keeps them existing and maintaining the properties with which he created them"? This statement does not seem consistent with human observation. Just last week, my cat, Tiger, was run over by a car and killed. In what way was God "continually involved" with him. In what way did God "keep him existing"? In what way did God "maintain the properties with which he created him"?

If you say that it is not the individual to which the statement applies, but to the class (cats in general), then what about passenger pigeons, and countless other animals and birds which have become entirely extinct?
They don't seem to have been "kept existing" or have had their "properties maintained".

[Guest]

Apparently God only is involved in all the good and right things, well at least as how we ourselves make judgement upon what is good and right.

God could never bring about evil in order to facilitate His good plan and purposes, no!

One wonders what Bible some Christians are actually reading. I mean, God's Word reveals who God is, and if we reject/ignore His word, is it any wonder we end up with a god of our own invention?

If I were to present plain scriptures that teach that God brings about and controls evil and suffering and sin for His own ends, will professing Christians bow the knee, humble themselves before such a God, or will they ignore/twist or reject those plain passages and favour their own philosophical speculations?

Haas, you are correct. Not only are Libertarian presuppositions a real barrier to understanding God as I am often stating, but the other important factor is the rejection of God's utter Sovereignty.

When one has a less than the full Biblical view of sovereignty, by default, not only is man elevated somewhat, but great teaching and huge chunks of scripture are also negated. It is truly sad to see.

Mark