Uncaused choices?

[Guest]

Steve-

i think the description of man's heart being deceitful and wicked doesnt speak to our "will" but simply to our condition. because the heart is that way, we choose to sin. we can choose otherwise (i.e. resist temptation) but we do not always do so. we choose to sin; i am trying to think if it is possible to accidentally sin-- i dont think so.

TK

[Guest]

Grudem on "free will":

9. Are We “Free”? Do We Have “Free Will”?
If God exercises providential control over all events are we in any sense free? The answer depends on what is meant by the word free. In some senses of the word free everyone agrees that we are free in our will and in our choices. Even prominent theologians in the Reformed or Calvinistic tradition concur. Both Louis Berkhof in his Systematic Theology (pp. 103, 173) and John Calvin in his Institutes of the Christian Religion16 are willing to speak in some sense of the “free” acts and choices of man. However, Calvin explains that the term is so subject to misunderstanding that he himself tries to avoid using it. This is because “free will is not sufficient to enable man to do good works, unless he be helped by grace.”17 Therefore, Calvin concludes:
Man will then be spoken of as having this sort of free decision, not because he has free choice equally of good and evil, but because he acts wickedly by will, not by compulsion. Well put, indeed, but what purpose is served by labeling with a proud name such a slight thing?
Calvin continues by explaining how this term is easily misunderstood:
But how few men are there, I ask, who when they hear free will attributed to man do not immediately conceive him to be master of both his own mind and will, able of his own power to turn himself toward either good or evil....If anyone, then, can use this word without understanding it in a bad sense, I shall not trouble him on this account...I’d prefer not to use it myself, and I should like others, if they seek my advice, to avoid it.18
Thus, when we ask whether we have “free will,” it is important to be clear as to what is meant by the phrase. Scripture nowhere says that we are “free” in the sense of being outside of God’s control19 or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. (This is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free; see discussion below.) Nor does it say we are “free” in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from God’s power. But we are nonetheless free in the greatest sense that any creature of God could be free—we make willing choices, choices that have real effects. 20 We are aware of no restraints on our will from God when we make decisions.21 We must insist that we have the power of willing choice; otherwise we will fall into the error of fatalism or determinism and thus conclude that our choices do not matter, or that we cannot really make willing choices. On the other hand, the kind of freedom that is demanded by those who deny God’s providential control of all things, a freedom to be outside of God’s sustaining and controlling activity, would be impossible if Jesus Christ is indeed “continually carrying along things by his word of power” (Heb. 1:3, author’s translation). If this is true, then to be outside of that providential control would simply be not to exist! An absolute “freedom,” totally free of God’s control, is simply not possible in a world providentially sustained and directed by God himself.
Grudem, W. A. 1994. Systematic theology : An introduction to biblical doctrine . Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House: Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, Mich.

[Guest]

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

So what happened? What did this evil, crafty creature do that nullified her free will or mitigates her responsibility? He told her a lie. Basically, "That's not true! It's good! Go for it!"

Please, explain to me what about that lie "changed her heart" such that she was not able to resist. What is it about the serpent's words that removed her capacity to trust God's words? Why should I not say that she chose to listen to someone who was contradicting God? Why should I not say she allowed herself to be deceived?



What happened? Actually nothing much because these desires were already within Eve which were pride and lust. These desires got ignited by the devil's words but they were within Eve from the beginning. And it's likely the devil did not physically look like a serpent but more likely an angel of light. Serpent is probably a name to accent the devil's craftiness so the question is, did Eve make a free will choice?
According to Webster's free-will means
FREE from prior causes
FREE from constraint
FREE from external circumstances
FREE from fate
FREE from Divine Will
FREE from Divine intervention

What did Paul think about Adam and Eve's free will?
"For the creation was subjected to futility , NOT WILLINGLY" Rom 8.20
Why was the creation subjected?
"Subjected it IN HOPE" Rom 8.20
It's God's plan that we should overcome.

[Guest]

Pure Semi-Pelagianism bordering upon Pelagianism.

Way to go, Tartan! Place people in a Heresy Box, put a label on it, and thank God that you are not as one of them, but that you are one of the elect and hold the faith of Augustinian-Calvinistic Orthodoxy.

[Guest]

Way to go, Tartan! Place people in a Heresy Box, put a label on it, and thank God that you are not as one of them, but that you are one of the elect and hold the faith of Augustinian-Calvinistic Orthodoxy.

I agree with you Piadion. Mark reminds me of this Pharisee.

18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Though I imagine Mark (as well as many other Calvinists) might sound something like this, 'God, I thank you, that I was born among the elect, and not among the reprobate, heretics, Arminians, and open theists. But you Lord made me and predestined me with all this great knowledge of your election, and you have not chosen these others to have such great knowledge. Amen

Robin

[Guest]

Or maybe Mark could be described like this:

Galatians 1:10
10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Or maybe this:
Acts 20:26-27

26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Ultimately the truth about who are God’s children is this:

2 Timothy 2:19
19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”


In Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

Ultimately the truth about who are God’s children is this:

2 Timothy 2:19
19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Amen to that!
Robin

[Guest]

I think its ridiculous that people called you a pharisee, judgmental, etc.
They don't like be labeled as heretics so they disobey scriptural mandates and hypocritically strike back with the same blow they think they've been dealt.
Your analysis is not ad-hominem because you are truly convinced that pelagianism and open-theism is heresy. I agree with you. It is from a conviction. You weren't doing it to attack people or offend them.
I do see, however, the lash-back as in that nature. I could be wrong.
The board would benefit as a whole from a lot less speculation about people's motives, hearts, etc. and just dealing with the facts they posit.
Mark poses that these things are heresy, so, an appropriate response would not be calling him a pharisee, but refuting his position on it.
Mark, hang in there and stay strong. I have not seen you be appropriate yet. I think their response was.

[Guest]

Way to go, Tartan! Place people in a Heresy Box, put a label on it, and thank God that you are not as one of them, but that you are one of the elect and hold the faith of Augustinian-Calvinistic Orthodoxy.

I agree with you Piadion. Mark reminds me of this Pharisee.

18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Though I imagine Mark (as well as many other Calvinists) might sound something like this, 'God, I thank you, that I was born among the elect, and not among the reprobate, heretics, Arminians, and open theists. But you Lord made me and predestined me with all this great knowledge of your election, and you have not chosen these others to have such great knowledge. Amen

Robin

There is nothing more prideful and arrogant than to think that if God had not reached in and changed your nature, you would still be in rebellion against him, seeking after man-made religion or denying the Creator entirely. There is no declaration filled with more egotistical cockiness than "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

[Guest]

There is nothing more prideful and arrogant than to think that if God had not reached in and changed your nature, you would still be in rebellion against him, seeking after man-made religion or denying the Creator entirely. There is no declaration filled with more egotistical cockiness than "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

Jugulum,

I don't deny that God changes our nature. As you well know, Arminians believe in regeneration, the differnce is whether faith proceeds regeneration or if it is the other way around.

Robin