Elect

[Guest]

The Hebrew word for Elect:

972. Bachiyr, baw-kheer’ chosen (8x), elect (4x), chose (1x)
Bachiyr means “chosen ones”; it is used always of the Lord’s “chosen ones”; “Saul whom the Lord did choose” (2 Sa 21:6); “Ye children of Jacob, his chosen one” (I Chr 16:13) [The New Strongs Expanded Exhaustive concordance of the Bible Red-Letter Edition]

The Greek word for Elect:

1588. eklektos, ek-lek-tos’; from 1586 select, chosen out; by impl. favorite; --chosen (16x), elect (7x). (1) e.g., Mt22:14; Lk 23:35, Rom 16:13; Rev 17:14; I Pet 2;4, 9. [The New Strongs Expanded Exhaustive concordance of the Bible Red-Letter Edition]

eklektos/The elect is similar to ekklesia “The called out ones” which means church.

These are some more words that are roughly synonymous with elect:

Chosen, predestined, sheep, and beloved.


John 10:22-30
22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Matthew Henry's comments on John 10:26:

“Ye are not designed to be my followers; ye are not of those that were given to me by my Father, to be brought to grace and glory. Ye are not of the number of the elect; and your unbelief, if you persist in it, will be certain evidence that you are not…” [Commentary on the whole Bible, The Comprehensive Commentary Volume IV pp. 721]

Please consider these questions and comments (a paraphrase of RC Sproul Jr. from Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism dvd):

Does anyone have a problem that God called out Israel and set them apart and set his love upon them and distinguished them from other nations?

Here is Moses who is born under a death sentence, born to a slave. And here is Pharaoh who is born heir to the throne of the most powerful kingdom the world has ever known (at that time). God didn’t give Moses everything that He gave this baby Pharaoh (not initially). Then Moses is brought up in Pharaoh’s house. Then Moses flees Egypt.

Does God come in a bush to Pharaoh?

God comes to Moses and says something like: “I am going to be your God and I am going to take care of your people and I am going to give you my Law and put you into a land. I am going to make you a nation (Abraham—Moses---etc).

Does anyone have a problem with God doing this?

If not, why is it a problem in the New Covenant for God to set his covenant of grace/love on some people in a way that is distinct from other people?


Romans 9:14-18
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

Greetings Haas,

The quote: 18 "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills".

Seems Pauls treatment of God's soverienty poses some "thorny" implications to man's free will. This begs the question. Does our "free will"
over rule God's soverienty?

Peace in Him,
Bob

[Guest]

Seems Pauls treatment of God's soverienty poses some "thorny" implications to man's free will.

lol..It is the death nail of free will!

Mark

Rom 9:11 (for the children had not yet been born, neither had done any good or evil; but that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who called,)

[Guest]

Mark,

Seems Pauls treatment of God's soverienty poses some "thorny" implications to man's free will.

lol..It is the death nail of free will!

Mark

Rom 9:11 (for the children had not yet been born, neither had done any good or evil; but that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who called,)

Well, case closed. I guess you win. I guess no Armenians have ever read Romans 9, how could we have overlooked the obvious?

Or perhaps you only understand Romans 9 this way because of you Calvinistic presuppositions. Let me explain how I understand Romans 9:18

9:18
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

This should say enough, but let me expound.

God has mercy on those we wills (believers), and He will not have mercy on those he does not will (un-believers). those un-believers are left to the hardness of their own heart.

Traveler,

Seems Pauls treatment of God's soverienty poses some "thorny" implications to man's free will. This begs the question. Does our "free will"
over rule God's soverienty?

Why do Calvinists want to pit man’s free will against God's soverienty? Can God not, through His soverienty, give man free will? Therefore when man exercises free will, he is acting in accordance with God's soverienty. There is nothing inconsistent in the Armenian view of Gods Soverienty

Thank you,
Robin

[Guest]

I think there is already another thread on Romans 9. Maybe we could discuss Romans 9 there. I will try to post something on it and bring it up to the top.

Haas

[Guest]

Well, case closed. I guess you win. I guess no Armenians have ever read Romans 9, how could we have overlooked the obvious?

Hmm...I'm not sure whether Armenians read Romans 9...I don't know how much individual Bible reading they do over there.

Out of curiosity, have you ever quoted Matthew 23:37 or 1 John 2:4 or 2 Peter 3:9 in a similar way?

[Guest]

What has amazed me for many decades is how it is possible that people with the ability to choose, can deny that ability.

It reminds me of a "philosophy of mind" course I once took at the University of Manitoba. The current philosophy of the day was to deny self-awareness, and consider human beings as sophisticated robots.
In their case, it was people with self-awareness denying self-awareness.

[Guest]

Hmm...I'm not sure whether Armenians read Romans 9...I don't know how much individual Bible reading they do over there.

That's what I get for depending on spell check.

Robin

[Guest]

Paidon wrote:

What has amazed me for many decades is how it is possible that people with the ability to choose, can deny that ability.

I don't think the ability to choose is what is being denied. I think viewing people as little sovereigns running around apart from God's ultimate sovereignty is what is being denied.


This is a bit of a long quote from Grudem, but I believe it could be helpful in contemplating willing choices.

6. All Aspects of Our Lives. It is amazing to see the extent to which Scripture affirms that God brings about various events in our lives. For example, our dependence on God to give us food each day is affirmed every time we pray, “Give us this day our daily bread” (Matt. 6:11), even though we work for our food and (as far as mere human observation can discern) obtain it through entirely “natural” causes. Similarly, Paul, looking at events with the eye of faith, affirms that “my God will supply every need” of his children (Phil 4:19), even though God may use “ordinary” means (such as other people) to do so.
God plans our days before we are born, for David affirms, “In your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them” (Ps. 139:16). And Job says that man’s “days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass” (Job 14:5). This can be seen in the life of Paul, who says that God “had set me apart before I was born” (Gal. 1:15), and Jeremiah, to whom God said, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jer. 1:5).
All our actions are under God’s providential care, for “in him we live and move” (Acts 17:28]. The individual steps we take each day are directed by the Lord. Jeremiah confesses, “I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps” (Jer. 10:23). We read that “a man’s steps are ordered by the Lord” (Prov. 20:24), and that “a man’s mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps” (Prov. 16:9). Similarly, Proverbs 16:1 affirms, “The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.”3
Success and failure come from God, for we read, “For not from the east or from the west and not from the wilderness comes lifting up; but it is God who executes judgment, putting down one and lifting up another” (Ps. 75:6–7). So Mary can say, “He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree” (Luke 1:52). The Lord gives children, for children “are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward” (Ps. 127:3).
All our talents and abilities are from the Lord, for Paul can ask the Corinthians, “What have you that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?” (1 Cor. 4:7). David knew that to be true regarding his military skill, for, though he must have trained many hours in the use of a bow and arrow, he could say of God, “He trains my hands for war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze” (Ps. 18:34).
God influences rulers in their decisions, for “the king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; he turns it wherever he will” (Prov. 21:1). An illustration of this was when the Lord “turned the heart of the king of Assyria” to his people, “so that he aided them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel” (Ezr. 6:22), or when “the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia” (Ezr. 1:1) to help the people of Israel. But it is not just the heart of the king that God influences, for he looks down “on all the inhabitants of the earth” and “fashions the hearts of them all” (Ps. 33:14–15). When we realize that the heart in Scripture is the location of our inmost thoughts and desires, this is a significant passage. God especially guides the desires and inclinations of believers, working in us “both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).
All of these passages, reporting both general statements about God’s work in the lives of all people and specific examples of God’s work in the lives of individuals, lead us to conclude that God’s providential work of concurrence extends to all aspects of our lives. Our words, our steps, our movements, our hearts, and our abilities are all from the Lord.
But we must guard against misunderstanding. Here also, as with the lower creation, God’s providential direction as an unseen, behind-the-scenes, “primary cause,” should not lead us to deny the reality of our choices and actions. Again and again Scripture affirms that we really do cause events to happen. We are significant and we are responsible. We do have choices and these are real choices that bring about real results. Scripture repeatedly affirms these truths as well. Just as a rock is really hard because God has made it with the property of hardness, just as water is really wet because God has made it with the property of wetness, just as plants are really alive because God has made them with the property of life, so our choices are real choices and do have significant effects, because God has made us in such a wonderful way that he has endowed us with the property of willing choice.
One approach to these passages about God’s concurrence is to say that if our choices are real, they cannot be caused by God (see below for further discussion of this viewpoint). But the number of passages that affirm this providential control of God is so considerable, and the difficulties involved in giving them some other interpretation are so formidable, that it does not seem to me that this can be the right approach to them. It seems better to affirm that God causes all things that happen, but that he does so in such a way that he somehow upholds our ability to make willing, responsible choices choices that have real and eternal results and for which we are held accountable. Exactly how God combines his providential control with our willing and significant choices, Scripture does not explain to us. But rather than deny one aspect or the other (simply because we cannot explain how both can be true), we should accept both in an attempt to be faithful to the teaching of all of Scripture.
The analogy of an author writing a play may help us to grasp how both aspects can be true. In the Shakespearean play Macbeth the character Macbeth murders King Duncan. Now (if we assume for a moment that this is a fictional account), the question may be asked, “Who killed King Duncan?” On one level, the correct answer is “Macbeth.” Within the context of the play he carried out the murder and is rightly to blame for it. But on another level, a correct answer to the question, “Who killed King Duncan?” would be “William Shakespeare”: he wrote the play, he created all the characters in it, and he wrote the part where Macbeth killed King Duncan.
It would not be correct to say that because Macbeth killed King Duncan, William Shakespeare did not kill him. Nor would it be correct to say that because William Shakespeare killed King Duncan, Macbeth did not kill him. Both are true. On the level of the characters in the play Macbeth fully (100 percent) caused King Duncan’s death, but on the level of the creator of the play, William Shakespeare fully (100 percent) caused King Duncan’s death. In similar fashion, we can understand that God fully causes things in one way (as Creator), and we fully cause things in another way (as creatures).
Of course, someone may object that the analogy does not really solve the problem because characters in a play are not real persons; they are only characters with no freedom of their own, no ability to make genuine choices, and so forth. But in response we may point out that God is infinitely greater and wiser than we are. While we as finite creatures can only create fictional characters in a play, not real persons, God, our infinite Creator, has made an actual world and in it has created us as real persons who make willing choices. To say that God could not make a world in which he causes us to make willing choices (as some would argue today; see discussion below), is simply to limit the power of God. It seems also to deny a large number of passages of Scripture.4
Grudem, W. A. 1994. Systematic theology : An introduction to biblical doctrine . Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House: Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, Mich.

[Guest]

What has amazed me for many decades is how it is possible that people with the ability to choose, can deny that ability.

Interesting. So you're not just saying you think a compatibilistic view of the will doesn't work. You think that people who argue that we are responsible because we choose according to the desires of our hearts are actually denying that we choose at all?

In all those decades, did you read anything from a Calvinist that said "we don't choose"?