God's Foreknowledge

Post by **_TK** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:01 pm

mark wrote:

Quote (by TK):
"CS Lewis believed that God is "outside" our time stream, and therefore time does not progress on a timeline for Him like it does for us. To us, there is a past, present (which doesnt last very long) and a future. To God, everything is "now" for lack of a better word. so its not so much that he knows we will do something, he simply sees us doing it. i think this approach deals with the free will argument, and explains foreknowledge at the same time."

mark wrote: No it does not, unless we are willing to live with a god who is a mere spectator!, a voyeur of divine proportions. No thanks, the Biblical God is way better, and Him I shall believe, trust and defend, not that He needs my help!

So answer me this, Mark. Does God see what I am doing 10 days from now, or not? If he does, then what is wrong with the view of CS Lewis? If he doesnt, then how is he omniscient?

TK

Post by **_Perry** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:07 pm

Mark,

Do you believe that Christ in His incarnate form was Divine?

Perry

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:32 pm

Perry, please do not suggest inferences based upon me saying that even the Son of man did not exercise libertarian free will, in order to perceive me as perhaps not affirming Christ's deity! Please.

Just deal with my arguments not your inferences.
You are fishing when you should be feeding!

I of course affirm the full deity of Jesus Christ, but I recognise that part of His being born of a woman, was self imposed restricted omniscience, which includes a will that was enslaved to righteousness. A will that acted according to it's sinless nature and was subject to and one with the will of the Father.

What Arminians believe in is a will that is free and libertarian!
Please deal with what I am saying, or at the very least attempt to do so.

Mark

Post by **_Derek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:45 pm

Mark,

The only free creature in the Universe is God, and the position is well and truly filled!

If knowledge of the future precludes the possibility of free will, how is it that God is free? Is He not aware of His future actions?

God bless,

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:50 pm

So answer me this, Mark. Does God see what I am doing 10 days from now, or not?

Of course, but my point is to go further than mere voyeurism.
The question becomes “How” does God know?

Does He know because of simple foreknowledge, or does He know because He has ordained whatsoever comes to pass?

Lewis being a Non Calvinist does not go far enough, as scripture does.

My question to you is a simple one. If you agree that God knows what you will do in 10 days time, then are you free to do otherwise?

Mark

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:59 pm

Mark,

Quote:
The only free creature in the Universe is God, and the position is well and truly filled!

If knowledge of the future precludes the possibility of free will, how is it that God is free? Is He not aware of His future actions?

God bless,

Ah, philosophy. Not just any old philosophy either, but an argument made popular by atheists against Christianity!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology

If we are going to discuss the ontological differences between man and God then maybe we should also raise others issues concerning epistemology such as the concept that God Himself is fully free in His ontological reality and therefore requires no justification for concepts we comprehend within a time bound constraint, or some such thing?

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:05 pm

Is it not of passing interest, that when Non Calvinists raise the same objections against Calvinism, that Atheists raise against Christianity, that somewhere, alarm bells should start ringing, ....somewhere?

Mark

Post by **_Derek** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:10 pm

Hi Mark,

Ah, philosophy. Not just any old philosophy either, but an argument made popular by atheists against Christianity!

I am aware of this. I am just asking. You are the one that says knowledge of future choices precludes freewill. I am just asking why this does not apply to God. I am not sure I see a way out of it.

Is it not of passing interest, that when Non Calvinists raise the same objections against Calvinism, that Atheists raise against Christianity, that somewhere, alarm bells should start ringing, ....somewhere?

Is this your answer?... Besides, I'm not putting forth an argument against Christianity or Cavlinism per se, just the idea that knowledge of the future precludes freewill. This is the logical conclusion of your reasoning as far as I can tell.

It seems that you are saying God's knowledge of human choises, precludes their freewill, yet His knowledge of His own choices does not preclude His own. Why is this?

God bless,

Post by **_Perry** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:49 am

Perry wrote:Do you believe that Christ in His incarnate form was Divine?

Mark wrote:Perry, please do not suggest inferences based upon me saying that even the Son of man did not exercise libertarian free will, in order to perceive me as perhaps not affirming Christ's deity! Please.

Just deal with my arguments not your inferences.
You are fishing when you should be feeding!

I wasn't aware that I was doing either. I was simply asking a question, a question which infers or suggests nothing.

Perry

Post by **_TK** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:57 pm

tartanarmy wrote:
So answer me this, Mark. Does God see what I am doing 10 days from now, or not?

Of course, but my point is to go further than mere voyeurism.
The question becomes “How” does God know?

Does He know because of simple foreknowledge, or does He know because He has ordained whatsoever comes to pass?

Lewis being a Non Calvinist does not go far enough, as scripture does.

My question to you is a simple one. If you agree that God knows what you will do in 10 days time, then are you free to do otherwise?

Mark

The ramifications of accepting that God, in the inestimatable past, pre-ordained just exactly what every person would do, and every event that would ever occur in the universe is more than I can accept. For lack of a better phrase, what would the point in that be? Now, a child (or even an adult for that matter) may have fun arranging a long line of dominos in different configurations, only to have them all fall after the first one is pushed, but is that all we are, one big "domino" set up? Think about what that means.

I may be dating myself a tad, but I used to play a lot of electric football-- you know-- there are little plastic men that you place on this metal field that vibrates and caused the men to move. however, the games didnt last very long because, well, it got boring, at least to me, EVEN THOUGH i wasnt controlling EVERYTHING- i mean i arranged the players and pushed the start button, then off they went. But it wasnt all that exciting.

Now I am not saying that God needs excitement, or that he can be bored, but doesnt it seem a bit silly to suggest that every little thing that happens today was pre-ordained by God eons ago, and he is just sitting watching it play out (like a person wathcing dominos fall)? I like the Andy Griffith show, but even I dont watch if I have seen the episode so many times that I practically have it memorized.

Do you see what I am saying?

TK