God's Foreknowledge

Post by **_Perry** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:48 pm

Tk wrote:I may be dating myself a tad, but I used to play a lot of electric football-- you know-- there are little plastic men that you place on this metal field that vibrates and caused the men to move.

O' man! I haven't thought of those in ages.

Invariably there was one little guy who behaved much like these debates for and against Calvinism.

He went around and around and around and around....

Perry

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:01 pm

TK, I am sure that I have already read this. Now I don't think I foresaw what you wrote, and so I am asking your source. Was it Gregory Boyd?

Post by **_TK** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:25 am

No sources for this one Paidion- in fact i havent read too much Greg Boyd on this subject. I know he is an open theist, and takes some heat for it.

what made me think of the dominos was the closing scene in the movie "V for Vendetta." i probably shouldnt have watched it because it was rated R- but it did have a decent message.

of course the electric football analogy came from my childhood- i rec'd two of them about 3 christmases apart. to save time setting up all 11 men, we used to play 5 on 5.

TK

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:02 am

The ramifications of accepting that God, in the inestimatable past, pre-ordained just exactly what every person would do, and every event that would ever occur in the universe is more than I can accept.

Why, specifically?
Maybe give three clear objections, making sure each one can be biblically sustained, please?

Also

and he is just sitting watching it play out (like a person wathcing dominos fall)?

Who believes that?

Mark

Post by **_Derek** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:24 am

Hey Mark,

You never explained how it is that God has free will. Perhaps you didn't see my post on Jun 14, 2007 12:10 am?

I am really curious to see how you explain this. So much of what you are saying about foreknowledge kind of hinges on this it seems. It would seem that if God can know all of His own personal choices/actions and yet still have free will, then the same can be said of His knowledge of our choices/actions.

You may say "well, we're not God", and that's fine. I just want to know how His knowledge of His own actions does not cancel out His freewill.

Could it not be said that God simply knew what He would freely choose? I don't understand why this can't be the case for Him and us.

God bless,

Post by **_TK** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:53 pm

tartanarmy wrote:
The ramifications of accepting that God, in the inestimatable past, pre-ordained just exactly what every person would do, and every event that would ever occur in the universe is more than I can accept.
Why, specifically?
Maybe give three clear objections, making sure each one can be biblically sustained, please?

Also

and he is just sitting watching it play out (like a person wathcing dominos fall)?
Who believes that?

Mark

In regard to part 1, you asked for 3 reasons why. i'll take a stab:

1) it would be stupid
2) it would be degrading to Him and to us. (If you ever watched the original Star Trek or even TNG- think of the Squire of Gothos or Q. Those are the types of god-like entities who manipulate and toy with humans for their own whimsies. The true God is not like that.
3) there would be no point (see #1)

i am too lazy to research biblical references, but God is not stupid, nor does he degrade himself or us for sole purpose of degrading, and God does not do things that are pointless.

in regard to part 2, the logical implication is that if God pre-set everything in advance and knows exactly what everyone will do and what He will do in relation to us (kudos derek), then he is essentially watching a re-run. Ho-hum.

TK

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:55 pm

In Greek, the noun for "foreknowledge" is "prognosis" (Is a medical doctor's "prognosis" an absolute foreknowledge?). Both occurences of the word refer to the foreknowledge of God.

The verbal form, "foreknow" is used in 5 different verses, of which 3 refer to God foreknowing, and 2 refer to man foreknowing.

I think it is worthwhile to examine the 2 which refer to man foreknowing. It is obvious that "foreknow" is used in a sense which does not imply absolute foreknowledge.

Acts 26:5 (as literally as I can translate it)

Foreknowing me from the first, if they (the Jews) are willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived a Pharisee.

I am sure that if the expression "foreknowing me from the first" had been used in reference to God's foreknowledge, it would be a proof for some of those who post here, that God saw before hand every thing that Paul ever did, and by extrapolation, the deeds of every other person who ever lived. But what will we do with the expression in this case, where it refers to the foreknowledge of the Jews? Clearly, the Jews didn't foreknow everything that Paul ever did. They were aware, however, that he previously lived as a strict Pharisee.

So if "foreknowing me from the first" has reference to a "knowledge" of Paul which was less than absolute, why is it insisted that it is an absolute foreknowledge when God is doing the foreknowing? Why is it believed to be evidence that God's knows beforehand every choice which every person ever makes? ----- which of course, means that every person is not free to make a choice contrary to this absolute foreknowledge. If he could choose to make a choice contrary to God's foreknowledge, that would be clear evidence that the relevant foreknowledge did not exist.

Here is the second passage (2 Peter 3:17)

Therefore, Beloved, foreknowing, beware, lest by the error of the displaced ones, beng led with [them], you fall from [your] own stability.

In this case, the foreknowledge is possessed by the ones to whom Peter is writing. Apparently, they obtained this foreknowledge from the letters of Paul, and with this knowledge, they are equipped to avoid the error of those who would lead them astray.

Post by **_Sean** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:12 am

tartanarmy wrote:
So answer me this, Mark. Does God see what I am doing 10 days from now, or not?

Of course, but my point is to go further than mere voyeurism.
The question becomes “How” does God know?

Does He know because of simple foreknowledge, or does He know because He has ordained whatsoever comes to pass?

You see Paidion, this is Calvinism.

Derek wrote:
You may say "well, we're not God", and that's fine. I just want to know how His knowledge of His own actions does not cancel out His freewill.

Could it not be said that God simply knew what He would freely choose? I don't understand why this can't be the case for Him and us.

God bless,

Very good point!

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:41 pm

Sean quoting Derek:

You may say "well, we're not God", and that's fine. I just want to know how His knowledge of His own actions does not cancel out His freewill.

Could it not be said that God simply knew what He would freely choose? I don't understand why this can't be the case for Him and us.

To the best of my knowledge no one claims that "God's foreknowledge cancels out our free will".

The claim is that if it is true at time T that person P will choose to do action A at time T+1, then it is not true that P can choose not to do A at time T1+1. For the two contradict each other. This claim is true also if P is God.

For example, suppose that it now true that at 3 P.M. tomorrow God will choose to heal person Q , in spite of the fact that He has not yet made a decision about the matter. Could God then be free to choose not to heal Q tomorrow at 3 P.M.? If He could, then it is not now true that He will choose to heal person Q at 3 P.M. tomorrow.

But the difference between God and us, is that He often made His choice some time in the past rather than at some future time, and has the ability to carry out that choice. For example, God has chosen some time in the past to send His Son to earth again in the second coming. When God has made up His mind about something, He has the power to carry it out, and nothing can thwart Him. So it is NOW TRUE that God will send His Son to earth again in the second coming. God will not change His mind about this, since it is one of the things that He has determined to do. He has already exercised His free will, and so had made His choice. In our case, we may make present choices about future actions too, but we don't always have the power to carry them out. So we may change our choice due to circumsances which may arise.

The claim that is made is that the truth or falsity of statements about future choices are incompatibile with free will ---- not choices which have already been made. So someone could KNOW (in the absolute sense of knowing) that I willl choose action A in the future, I cannot choose not to do action A.

Bottom line: God doesn't "simply know what He will choose." Rather He "simply chooses what He will do."

Post by **_TK** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:30 pm

a quick question for mark (a simple yes or no will suffice):

does God hope that we will obey Him?

TK