Uncaused choices?

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:24 pm

roblaine wrote:
There is nothing more prideful and arrogant than to think that if God had not reached in and changed your nature, you would still be in rebellion against him, seeking after man-made religion or denying the Creator entirely. There is no declaration filled with more egotistical cockiness than "There, but for the grace of God, go I."
Jugulum,

I don't deny that God changes our nature. As you well know, Arminians believe in regeneration, the differnce is whether faith proceeds regeneration or if it is the other way around.

Robin

I'm sure you don't. I was responding to your attempt to peer into the hearts of Mark and "many other Calvinists".

Post by **_roblaine** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:39 pm

I'm sure you don't. I was responding to your attempt to peer into the hearts of Mark and "many other Calvinists".

Your right, perhaps I was a little off base. However, I imagine that if I were a calvinist, and believed that God predestine the fate of every person ever born, I would be thankful that I was one of the elect, and not amoung the non-elect.

As a Calvinist, do you not thank God that He predestine you to the elect, and not the non-elect? And (on a side note) are there any that you may know of who are not among the elect, that you wish were?

Robin

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:02 pm

roblaine wrote:
I'm sure you don't. I was responding to your attempt to peer into the hearts of Mark and "many other Calvinists".
Your right, perhaps I was a little off base.

Thanks. I mean, it wasn't directed at me, but still, I'm glad you said so.

However, I imagine that if I were a calvinist, and believed that God predestine the fate of every person ever born, I would be thankful that I was one of the elect, and not amoung the non-elect.

As a Calvinist, do you not thank God that He predestine you to the elect, and not the non-elect?

I am wholeheartedly grateful to God for every aspect of the way that he saved me. The problem was the attitude you were infusing into that "thanksgiving"--lightyears away from the humility of a Calvinist who feels the weight of "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

And (on a side note) are there any that you may know of who are not among the elect, that you wish were?

Robin

Well...There's no one that I know is not elect. But I know unsaved people, who I hope and pray that God will save. And he may not do so.

Were your thoughts going somewhere like, "Aren't you going against God's will by desiring that, if he hasn't elected them?" If so, one way I would respond is to turn the question back to you: "How can you ever hope for something that God doesn't grant? Isn't that going against his will?" I would also respond that if such considerations shaped my theology, I would be a universalist.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:48 pm

Why do you Calvinistic "elect" ones bother trying to convince us, the "non-elect". If we become convinced, that's not going to change our "non-elect" status, is it?

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:08 pm

Paidion wrote:Why do you Calvinistic "elect" ones bother trying to convince us, the "non-elect". If we become convinced, that's not going to change our "non-elect" status, is it?

(1) Being genuinely saved does not mean you will correctly understand all of the doctrines of salvation. In other words, Calvinism does not teach that only Calvinists are saved.
(2) When a Calvinist discusses the doctrines of salvation with a non-Calvinist Christian, the intent is not to bring salvation.
(3) When a Calvinist preaches the gospel to unbelievers, the understanding is that it is not us who convinces, but the Holy Spirit who uses our proclamation of the gospel to convict.

Post by **_roblaine** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:22 pm

Jugulum,

"How can you ever hope for something that God doesn't grant?

Well since I believe that God granted us all free will, there would be nothing I could do that God didn't grant.

"Isn't that going against his will?"

Through the freedom granted to us by God, man will oppose God's will (sin) inevitably.

Are you going to argue that men who sin and never repent, are fullfilling God's will in their life? Are you sure you want to attribute this to God?

Robin

Post by **_roblaine** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:27 pm

(2) When a Calvinist discusses the doctrines of salvation with a non-Calvinist Christian, the intent is not to bring salvation.

Jugulum,

If God pre-ordaines all things, why would God pre-ordaine such disagreements about His nature among saved christians (Calvinism, Arminianism, open theism)? Is God the God of confusion? I think not, rather it is man who is confused.

Robin

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:32 pm

I'm editing this to fix the formatting, and I'm adding a couples sentences. I'll mark them in blue font, in case you're already composing a response to this.

roblaine wrote:
"How can you ever hope for something that God doesn't grant?
Well since I believe that God granted us all free will, there would be nothing I could do that God didn't grant.

I asked a question that involved God granting or not granting a desire/hope/request/prayer. You respond by talking about God granting that you would hope?

"Isn't that going against his will?"
Through the freedom granted to us by God, man will oppose God's will (sin) inevitably.

Argh! Robin, don't take my sentences by themselves! I didn't ask about whether man ever resists/opposes God's will!

What was "that" in the sentence referring to? To what was the whole question a parallel?

If you were not intending to ask a question like, "Aren't you going against God's will by desiring that, if he hasn't elected them?" then never mind.

Are you going to argue that men who sin and never repent, are fullfilling God's will in their life? Are you sure you want to attribute this to God?

How did you get on this topic?

Post by **__id_1512** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:35 pm

roblaine wrote:
(2) When a Calvinist discusses the doctrines of salvation with a non-Calvinist Christian, the intent is not to bring salvation.
Jugulum,

If God pre-ordaines all things, why would God pre-ordaine such disagreements about His nature among saved christians (Calvinism, Arminianism, open theism)? Is God the God of confusion? I think not, rather it is man who is confused.

Robin

If the Holy Spirit can grant divine revelation to each individual, why does God deem it fit to permit this disagreement? Is he the God of confusion?

Post by **_roblaine** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:42 pm

If the Holy Spirit can grant divine revelation to each individual, why does God deem it fit to permit this disagreement? Is he the God of confusion?

Obviously not. Man, though saved and regenerated is not perfect and open to mistakes. I certainly would not put the blame on the Holy Spirit. If I'm mistaken it is only my fault. However, if Calvinism is true, then God pre-ordained me to be mistaken. Therefore He bares some responsibulity.

Robin